What Waffenfarbe?

[Ostbat]

Sirs,
What Waffenfarbe on shoulder boards the personnel 14 Kompanie (anti-tank) from infantry Regiment? White (as at infantry), or red / pink (as at artillery / panzerjager)?
And one more question.
Soldiers from 14 Kompanie were awarded as infantrymen Infantry Assault Badge, or how gunners General Assault Badge?
Thank.

[werner]

Hi,
I should say red for their function and GAB for the reason that they are pak kompanie.
Just my opinion.

Regards
Werner

[Ostbat]

Thanks Werner.
Still opinions will be?

[GJR100]

Hi,

Panzerjäger wore pink, not red. Red was for Artillery and (later) self-propeled guns (being mobile Artillery ...).
I don't know on the IAB/GAB, my guess would also be GAB.

MfG,
Bart

[Laurent]

For it is white....

I'm sorry but I think that in theory all the members of a Regiment had the same Waffenfarbe color. So soldiers of an Infantry regiment could be in units (company or platoon) of:PAK, Infantry Guns, Flak Guns, horse mounted signals medical...... but they had to wear white piped shoulder boards. But on the field I am really sure that it could be different and some photos seems to proove it.. Some men having a different branch color on the cap and the shoulder board so...
Hope I help

Amicalement

Laurent

[CSP]

anything is possible, but correctly, they would wear rosa/pink for Panzerjaeger. I disagree that all membersof a regiment wore the same color.

Which assualt badge they were awarded may have been dependent on what type Panzerjager unit they were, I think. A towed unit or a self propelled unit could be found in the different kinds of Infantry units...and consequently, I think it depends somewhat on what type assault they made. However, in general, I'd tend to think the GAB was awarded.

[Laurent]

Désolé mais je persiste et je signe..

Sorry Scott!

But I still believe for a very long time that all a regiment had to wear the same branch color. I know that it is theory and the hight number of official text about this point proove that in fact the soldiers don't obey at this rules.
I take a quick view at my official text and I find
AHM N°496 of 30 03 1940 say that light Flak must use Weiss Waffenfarbe in Infantry regiment.
AHM N° 309 of 25 03 43 say that Panzergrenadier Regiment had to take weisengrün waffenfarbe
The same order say that Panzerjager had to use rosa but not for the Pak unit in Infantry (grenadier in the original text, as this word take place of infantry from order AHM N°935 of 15 10 1942) Regiment
Another text, AHM N° 269 of 05 03 1943 say that the Feldgrau sonderbekleidung (the Feldgrau wrap) must have wiesengrün collar tabs for armored infantry guns in Panzergrenadier Regiment, weiss in Grenadier, and hellgrün in Jager.....
I can't find the one about Panzerjager but there is certainly a lot of other example and to proove that a regiment must have one branch color. But this is an official and hight chiefs "dream"... I know that very well!
So as an answer at Ostbat at the start of this very interesting and debated point.. "What do you want to do?" The gap is large between theory and "fashions" in german army of WWII so.....
To make a mannequin of a 14th Infantry Co I personnally will make it with rosa waffenfarbe at home but in weiss for a publication or a public exposition this is my own and very modest idea...Sorry for my english..

laurent

[Ostbat]

Many thanks!
This question has interested me because I now with the friends create Reenacting group 14./J.R.245.
Shortly we are going to order insignia and consequently it is necessary
for me precisely the nobility correct Waffenfarbe.

Regards,
Igor.

[CSP]

Laurent:
Good points and I think this is a valuable bit of discussion.

My initial thoughts are that -without the complete regulation paragraph language...and maybe even with it - there could be two ways to interpret things.

One interpretation could be that the regulation was trying to clarify the use of green along with the renaming of Panzergrenadiere/Grenadiere - and so, did not necessarily mean everyone had to wear green, but that this regulation only was meant to define the color of Panzergrenadiere. But you say it also talks about PaK being excluded from wearing Rosa, so this would be new information me and support your point.

Flak is not an area I remember a lot about...but I think white was the main color across the Heer Flak. It also brings to question the fact that some Flak 88's were specifically organized to perform in an anti-tank role, so why white and not pink? I think, but I am not sure, that the difference may be that Heer Flak units were division troops and not organized permanently under other branch of service regiments (like Infantry)...which makes how you seem to interpret the regulations about Pak units within battalions,etc., make more sense.

I think the whole discussion of the field gray wrap - and the regulations in 1943 you mention - maight confuse things...and, were meant to clarify what Waffenfarbe would be worn on these special uniforms that began to be issued to Panzergrenadiere in '43...and maybe some motorized infantry that may have had a company in tracks?

So...it is very possible that you have it right and I have it wrong. Your research is more thorough than my memory. Can you provide the wording in these regulations? I am traveling so cannot reach my references.

[Laurent]

Too long to explain now...

Hello Scott,

there is not a wrong and a right position but there is a great period confusion in Waffenfarbe and much more for us today!
Sorry I have to leave for a long week for holydays and I haven't time to expose much deeper the original text and to have a reply for each part of your last reply..
To be short I think that the more important thing about theoric branch color is the unit and not the speciality.
To finish for this night you can't find a 8.8 cm gun team with white shoulder boards because 8.8 cm are heavy Flak guns and there is not heavy gun in Infantry/Grenadier regiment, 8.8 cm guns are in Flak Artillery Abteilung of the division with red piping.. The guns in AA company of infantry Regiment are more 2 cm ..
When there is a company of Panzerjager in Infantry Regiment this company could used 5 cm or 7.5 pak guns (even some strangers ones) or Panzerjager (Marder for example) or Stug. These men had white shoulder board but their friend in divisional Panzerjager abteilung had rosa ones even if their used exactly the same weapons...
I hope Iam clear and readable for you, I hope I help a little bit, I will take a look a this thread when I will be back on the 16 august just tell me before if you want that we work upon this very interesting point then..

Amicalement

Laurent

[Laurent]

The last one

Before I leave I would complete my reply above and speak about Stug (Sturmgeschütze). Stug Abteilung were independant units normally attached at Corps level but it could be attached to a division for an operation. The Sturmartillerie wear red Waffenfarbe. But sometimes the Stug III take place of Panzerjager in some unit when these one are missing, sometimes they take tank place where there is not enought Pz IV but this is for Panzer Division a much more complicate story, so let me stay in Infanterie Division....
So in the same Infantry Division you could find soldiers using Stug with:
white Waffenfarbe in the Panzerjager Company of a Infantry Regiment
rosa waffenfarbe in the Panzer Jager Abteilung
red in the Stug Abteilung
This "extraordinary" example is just a way to show how complicated things could be. And that we always have to think in units.
But one more time I would say that it is just a theorical wish of Heer chiefs, I am really far to be able to imagine the real Waffenfarbe situation on the front line... Therefore I think that we had to know the base!
My example could be take for a Panzer or a Jager Division but I have not time to explain it. The Waffenfarbe story of Panzer Division "infantry", (the Schützen later better known as Panzergrenadiere) couldn't be presented in some words..

Really sorry to leave this discussion I hope I will find it "alive" when I will be back and I will be happy if some other complete it.

Amitiés de Laurent

PS: Ostbat about the badge I think that the question is very interesting too and I think that as infantrymen "specialist", the Pak gunner of a 14th co received Infantry Badge but the insignia are not my field of interest but the reply exist ! Put this question on the Badge and the Paper Forums and you will see if some attribution of Infantry badges where made for soldiers of 13th company of Infantry gun or 14th of Pak.. Good luck to your tank hunter group !

[Ostbat]

Laurent,
Many thanks for the help and wishes!
Ostbat und PAK

[nonameno]

Hello Gentlemen,
I will enter the swamp on this discussion. It is my opinion that the waffenfarbe was based upon the main unit of the regiment! For example, the 14 company of an Infantry Regiment was the Panzer Jager company, which would have WHITE waffenfarbe! The Signals zug of an Infantry Regiment would have WHITE waffenfarbe. The Signals zug of an Artillery Regiment would have RED waffenfarbe. If the main unit was a Batallion, the waffenfarbe was the color for that arm of service. For example, an independant Panzer Jager Abteilung would have PINK waffenfarbe.
My opinions are based upon uniforms which I have in my possession which are unit marked.
Thanks,
Curtiss

[Laurent]

Thank You

Hello Nonameno,
You write in a short text what I was unable to explain in a long one !
Thank you very much. I would like to have a better english !
I will write you when I will be back home, don't forget me please!

Laurent

[CWP]

I also agree wholeheartedly with nonameno.

Chris P.