Marinehelferin CT one more time good/bad?

[Herr_Flick]

Greetings,

I got this Marinehelferin cuff title through my door yesterday. Sadly I don't have any reference on this cuff tittle, so I will be happy to hear some oppinions as well as see some "text book" examples.

I must admit that I got very surpriced to see the blue colour as it's not what I would expect of any Kriegsmarine insignia. My fears got larger when I UV-tested the cuff title as the white thread used in between the yellow thread on reverse glows significently.

First a scan for comparing the blue cloth. Please notice the comments I make on the photos along the thread.


Cheers,
Carsten

[Herr_Flick]

Detail of obverse.

[Herr_Flick]

Reverse.

[Herr_Flick]

Detail of reverse. This is where it starts to get interesting...first I thought that the soiling might have caused some of the yellow thread to turn white (maybe some wierd chemical could do that without bleaching the rest - I don't know), but as You can see there is indeed used white thread in between the yellow and it's only visable on reverse, wich I belive is not that unusual - or is it? However since the soiling are stronger on reverse than obverse and only on the woven area, it sure makes me think that somebody at some point in time "soiled" it in an attempt to hide something

[Herr_Flick]

This photo I took last evening with UV-light above it. I placed the CT on my 1990-aera chair...not so good I belive

[Herr_Flick]

And at last UV-test in total dark wich certinly gave me the feeling of

[W.Unland]

Hello,

Although not an "expert" your cuff title looks good to me. I am NOT a believer in the "all that glows in UV is bad" school of thought. Any cleaning or washing over the years would cause this to occur. The "bleeding" of the blue dye into the yellow piping shows that this piece probably has been washed. Just my 2cents.

Regards,
Bill Unland

[medalnet]

Glow

Very true, already during the Napoleonic wars dyes existed that glow under UV.

The believe that everything that glows is absolutly wrong. It is very much specific to each and every individual piece one is looking at.

Red and Pink colors mostly glow under UV light.

[Herr_Flick]

Greetings,

Thank You for Your input. It's very true that some orginal cloth items glow under UV-light...as I recall silk does - just an example. But it was not a statement of mine that everything that glows are fake. However UV-testing is generally a good guide line to tell good from bad stuff.

The thing is that the soiling is strongest and mainly on the embrodered part and strongest on reverse of the embrodering - how convinient sort of say. And since it glows on reverse only it doesn't take much imagination to add up that the soiling might be a "cover up" done at some point in time

To make one thing clear...it's NOT the soiling that glows - the white thread does as not all of white thread is soiled. I also tried UV-testing with a new white T-Shirt as background and the white threads on the cuff title glowed with near same strenght as the T-Shirt.

What about the blue colour - is that right? I'm asking that since it's unusual for KM insignia as that usually is very dark blue or cobolt blue...and this certinly isn't any of those two colours...more like blue-greyish. Of note the blue colour isn't faded by sunlight or wear.


Cheers,
Carsten

[W.Unland]

Dear Carsten,

To me the blue looks "washed", like a new pair of jeans. Some of the blue dye has been "washed" out of the material.I think it probably was much darker originally. Stylistically the band looks pretty good to me. It could be a fake. Any TR item could be a fake, but if so someone has gone into a lot of work to reproduce a not particularly expensive item. One other observation I have made on some insignia I have. The reverse does indeed glow but the obverse does not. It seems to me that the obverse's exposure to the sun and environment has "oxidized" or "cleansed away" the UV reactive chemical phosphates responsible for the "Glow". The reverse being sewn down and protected has not, and consequently still glows.

Again, just my thoughts. This is an increasingly bitter hobby. I collect mainly police insignia. In the past very little was reproduced, but as prices have climbed the number and quality of reproductions has skyrocketed. Unfortunately there seems to be NO 100% accurate way to tell. After all it's just a piece of cloth.

Regards,
Bill Unland

[Herr_Flick]

Dear Bill,

Very true that it look like a pair of washed jeans - just a bit more greyish though. However I doubt that this has been washed as that would have left it with a darker colour at the seam below the folds - and the colour is equal no matter where You look at this cuff title...so IMHO no fading by wash either.

If You have a "text book example" of this cuff title or a colour picture from a reference book I sure wouldn't mind seeing it.

As for fakes and their values I have to disagree. When having in mind that fakes of $20 worth tinnies excists, this sure would be an item worth faking as the value goes up to $300 depending on condition and where You buy it, so there is definetly a market for such a fake - especially since this cuff title is relatively rare.


Cheers,
Carsten

[glaser]

see : https://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/for...elfer-helferin

[djpool]

There are no known wartime pictures of this style of CT in wear. I included an example of one in my book, but state there is controversy surrounding its originality. Regards Jim