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    #1

    M43 weird great coat

    Hello guys,
    these days i came across to this great coat. It presents some weird features like: chocolate brown cloth and lining (cotton), lacking of french cuffs (it quite clear that it was manufactured without them!), lacking of deposing year (appears only the HBT of Metz-Lothringen with 124 !). I don’t reach to catalog it so i ask for your help.
    My options about are:
    - m43 tropical coat
    - late Army M43 coat, manufactured with the same cloth we are usually find in the late M44 feldbluse. Usually these Jackets are lacking of secondary featues as well as this coat.
    - very late SS coat, with the same cloth described above.
    What do you think ?
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Alex Ciavaglia; 04-02-2020, 06:44 AM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    hoi Alex

    in mine opinion late war model 44 greatcoat,,,

    cheers Bruno

    Comment

      #3
      Here my dated '45 unissued M44 Feldbluse. As most of this kind of tunics manufactured in the late war, it lacks of some secondary features. In it for example, the cloth tab under the collar is not present.
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #4
        hoi Alex

        this is mine late war greatcoat,, i ordered for in a few weeks

        cheers Bruno
        Attached Files

        Comment

          #5
          Hi Bruno, your one seems manufactured with cloth in Feldgrau 44 and not in chocolate brown. By the waf, it's a beauty

          Comment

            #6
            hoi Alex

            i think you have a point ,its different colour

            i hope to see more opinions

            cheers Bruno

            Comment

              #7
              That sold some time ago on ebay, I bet on it too but was beaten by 1€. It was described there as:

              Es ist der Mantel für einen Jungmann der pol. Erziehungsanstalten (z.B. npea, napola Oranienstein, Potsdam, Köslin etc.) aus grüngrauer / olivfarbener Wolle zum Geländedienstanzug der Schüler.

              so an overcoat for a NPEA student. Seeing the rather small size the coat has and the political/party'ish colour of the lining this just might be it. As this organisation was very closely tied to the SS and fashioned their uniforms after those, it's also understandable that the overcoat lacks french cuffs just like those of the Waffen SS.

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by Hptm. Fuhrmann View Post
                That sold some time ago on ebay, I bet on it too but was beaten by 1€. It was described there as:

                Es ist der Mantel für einen Jungmann der pol. Erziehungsanstalten (z.B. npea, napola Oranienstein, Potsdam, Köslin etc.) aus grüngrauer / olivfarbener Wolle zum Geländedienstanzug der Schüler.

                so an overcoat for a NPEA student. Seeing the rather small size the coat has and the political/party'ish colour of the lining this just might be it. As this organisation was very closely tied to the SS and fashioned their uniforms after those, it's also understandable that the overcoat lacks french cuffs just like those of the Waffen SS.
                Thank you for the answer. Yes i read the auction caption. I don't have any knowledge about the political stuff so i'm wondering if their great coat had the same features, markings etc. of the army ones. About the size, it is quite normal also for a man.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Here a picture of Npea young student. They wore the great coat with Frrnch cuffs. I'm still convinced that mine one is a late war army great coat.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Napola. French cuffs in their mantel.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Alex Ciavaglia View Post
                      Here a picture of Npea young student. They wore the great coat with Frrnch cuffs. I'm still convinced that mine one is a late war army great coat.
                      Those are pre-war/early-war pictures, AFAIK the first issued overcoats to feature no french cuffs were the M42/43 models of the Waffen SS, before then all SS, NPEA, WH, WL, etc. coats still had them. Your coat is obviously that kind of late war overcoat with a big collar, keeping in line with their traditions, why shouldn't late war NPEA uniforms reflect the features of their SS counterparts?
                      A chest size of 86cm and a total length of 110cm is not really what I would expect a regular adult man to fit in, the seller even wrote he suspects the coat to be for a ca. 14 year old boy. The overcoat has no army Depot stamps, no SS manufacturer number and no RBNr, NPEA uniforms like that were usually privately purchased, so it's got the actual manufacturers stamp.
                      Your overcoat was made by "Mechanische Kleiderfabrik, Weberei und Zwirnerei Bausch" in Otzenrath, today part of Jüchen, that's about 60km away from NPEA Bensberg, the sellers location was Kerpen, which is about 40km away from Bensberg and the same distance from Jüchen-Otzenrath where the coat was made. Maybe I'm just connecting random dots, but is it so hard to believe the overcoat is just what the seller said it is? Couldn't he have gotten way more money if he had made the tunic out to be a late war Waffen SS issue with it's typical features?

                      Best regards,
                      Andy

                      Comment

                        #12
                        I think the Mantel is probably what the seller presented it to be (NPEA). It follows the SS pattern with no pleat at the back and no cuffs and has a political type lining. I am thinking the marking 12 4 may well signify December of '44.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Hptm. Fuhrmann View Post
                          Those are pre-war/early-war pictures, AFAIK the first issued overcoats to feature no french cuffs were the M42/43 models of the Waffen SS, before then all SS, NPEA, WH, WL, etc. coats still had them. Your coat is obviously that kind of late war overcoat with a big collar, keeping in line with their traditions, why shouldn't late war NPEA uniforms reflect the features of their SS counterparts?
                          A chest size of 86cm and a total length of 110cm is not really what I would expect a regular adult man to fit in, the seller even wrote he suspects the coat to be for a ca. 14 year old boy. The overcoat has no army Depot stamps, no SS manufacturer number and no RBNr, NPEA uniforms like that were usually privately purchased, so it's got the actual manufacturers stamp.
                          Your overcoat was made by "Mechanische Kleiderfabrik, Weberei und Zwirnerei Bausch" in Otzenrath, today part of Jüchen, that's about 60km away from NPEA Bensberg, the sellers location was Kerpen, which is about 40km away from Bensberg and the same distance from Jüchen-Otzenrath where the coat was made. Maybe I'm just connecting random dots, but is it so hard to believe the overcoat is just what the seller said it is? Couldn't he have gotten way more money if he had made the tunic out to be a late war Waffen SS issue with it's typical features?

                          Best regards,
                          Andy


                          Hello Andy, everyone happens to be wrong. The chocolate brown M44 jacket I posted above is a rags find that took place twenty years ago together with a few others brothers, all new, unissued. Up to a decade ago it was snubbed and cleared through the collectors world as a reproduction (i remember well some episodes). The great coat in question is produced with the same fabric and in the same late period (presents December 1944 as the date of acceptance), consistent with the production of the jacket. That particular chocolate brown fabric still has unconfirmed origins. What I think is that stocks of political fabric for military use may have been used, as there was an extreme shortage of raw materials in the end of '44. The fact is that effects made with the same cloth were for army use.
                          It is not at all true that it does not have the HBA marking: if you look carefully there are the initials ML which indicate the Metz-Lothringen deposit (undoubtedly existed as Army deposit at that time). Regarding the size, it is certainly not for giant people, but for a person of average height at the time.

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Alex Ciavaglia View Post
                            Hello Andy, everyone happens to be wrong. The chocolate brown M44 jacket I posted above is a rags find that took place twenty years ago together with a few others brothers, all new, unissued. Up to a decade ago it was snubbed and cleared through the collectors world as a reproduction (i remember well some episodes). The great coat in question is produced with the same fabric and in the same late period (presents December 1944 as the date of acceptance), consistent with the production of the jacket. That particular chocolate brown fabric still has unconfirmed origins. What I think is that stocks of political fabric for military use may have been used, as there was an extreme shortage of raw materials in the end of '44. The fact is that effects made with the same cloth were for army use.
                            It is not at all true that it does not have the HBA marking: if you look carefully there are the initials ML which indicate the Metz-Lothringen deposit (undoubtedly existed as Army deposit at that time). Regarding the size, it is certainly not for giant people, but for a person of average height at the time.
                            Your theory fails to explain the lack of cuffs that I have never seen on a Heer contract coat. What is the triangular stitching at the rear below the belt, gathering the pleat, another feature I have never seen? I have also never seen this lining used in a Heer coat and even the brown leather patches suggest to me that this was made for some kind of political organization (RAD, SA Wehrmannschaft, NPEA, etc.). Could it possibly been repurposed by the Heer? I suppose anything is possible.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Originally posted by OSS View Post
                              Your theory fails to explain the lack of cuffs that I have never seen on a Heer contract coat. What is the triangular stitching at the rear below the belt, gathering the pleat, another feature I have never seen? I have also never seen this lining used in a Heer coat and even the brown leather patches suggest to me that this was made for some kind of political organization (RAD, SA Wehrmannschaft, NPEA, etc.). Could it possibly been repurposed by the Heer? I suppose anything is possible.
                              I agree and will add that the markings follow no Heer or W-SS convention for any period and certainly not post 42 with makers name present. The size is very small not impossible but very unlikely for a Wehrmacht issue. As mentioned the lining a and leather patches are brown and the former is cotton, basically not seen on post 42 Wehrmacht uniforms.

                              This family of colors is about as varied and tricky as feldgrau.

                              Comment

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