Blutfahne (Blood Banner or Blood Flag) history

[Gaspare]

old story...
, not 100% clear but either Himmler or Bormann took the flag from the funeral. It was presented to AH in his bunker and kept in his private quarters. AH's first thought for some reason was to send it to his sister with some other items. It was not included in the box but supposedly in a letter was mention of it not being in there.. In the box was AHs diary, a ring in a holder, a small flag from a yacht [?],,a one of a kind award for getting back the SAAR and a few other things.

AH after committing suicide AH was wrapped in the flag,,rolled in a blanket and the whole thing set of fire.

[oldflagswanted]

???

old story...
from the funeral. It was presented to AH in
his bunker ...
AH after committing suicide AH was wrapped
in the flag,,rolled in a blanket and the whole
thing set of fire.

Sources ???
OFW

[juoneen]

Like Stalin, I too am a believer that AH escaped and the suicide story was a smokescreen.
I have a friend who has a photo of a man who looks like Hitler from behind holding a woman in his arms wrapped in a blanket while there is a hole in the ground seen with a large tree behind the scene, and SS men with something like 9 jerry cans of petrol on the edge of the precipice ready to be dumped.
Was it Eva? Was it Adolf holding her lifeless remains?
My friend has wanted to use the photo some day as evidence in a publication, so unfortunately I have seen it, but been asked to never post .
It is very compelling as Eva tried suicide several times , and although she may have killed herself, it doesn't necessarily mean he had.
I have stated previously in another thread of a story told to me by an Amish man in pa. At Penns cave at a hit and miss show, of his claim that Hitlers had purchased a farm next to his years after the war, and what he believed from seeing the guy walk down the road daily, and knew it was Hitler with bad plastic surgery.

So we all revel in the stories differently. And now that Martin bormanns skull has been found and believed to have been reinterred in Berlin to mask that he died in South America, we all do not subscribe to the suicide story nor agree on his demise. But it does make interesting banter on the subject.
Not saying I'm right, just saying what I personally believe of the myth.. I wish the man who told me the story would have given me his name so I could have looked into his claims more closely.
I do not begrudge gaspares story , or beliefs. That's what keeps the forum interesting. The mystery of the unknown is possible , not always probable.
I also doubt the stories by the secretary in the fuhrers bunker, and his closest bodyguards , as their finale to keep the secret till death.
There has also been discovered that in Swiss krugerrands there has been found that there is a percentage of dental amalgams in many older coins.
So did Adolf transport gold by special subs in his flight if he did not commit suicide, as the type of person Eva was would not have been able to live knowing he killed 6,000,000 Jews and never told her.
So many things we have been taught of history are not always the gospel, but what they want us to believe not always the truth .. I also think helping ss escape or not be prosecuted was to use ex ss to help fight the Russians post war in our Cold War .( hardly any gestapo were ever prosecuted or convicted of war crimes too. ( pardon me getting a little off the track).
Here is another poke at fun on the subject I found amusing.( sorry only viewable to us citizens ). https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dm-hxr5rBiU

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Stalin knew since May 1945 that Hitler had died in the bunker, he got a massive report (based on facts) on that.
That he made everything possible to keep the myth alive of Hitler escaping from Berlin is another subject.

See You

Vince

[Br. James]

An interesting story, Gaspare, one I've never read before -- as OFW asked: "Sources?" And I wonder why the story is not more widely told...?

I love the cartoon, Juoneen! Thanks for adding it to your last note!

Br. James

[oldflagswanted]

9 Nov 1923 Putsch banners at the FHH ???

... the banner that was carried by SA member Heinrich Trambauer
on November 9th, together with the black-white-red flag of imperial
Germany and the banner of the Bund Oberland, was brand new at
that time. ... -- the three banners comprising the color guard were
carried from the Bürgerbraükeller at the head of the procession for
a period of no more than three-quarters of an hour when gunfire
opened upon the revolutionaries and the swastika flag fell to the
ground when the color guard dropped for cover. ... The altercation
lasted less than a minute, with most of the revolutionaries fleeing
for safety. ... I see no cause for this flag to receive the amount of
damage depicted in the fanciful drawings which portrays it in tatters!
... The topper in the drawing on the graphic was surely as fanciful as
the shredded banner also depicted there.
Br. James

Quite interesting about the FHH Putsch day
flags being just hours old on 9 Nov 1923. I
would have thought that they at least dated
back to initial use in the January 1923 first RPT.
OFW
(below-left) Early static and mobile swastikas.
Some later ending up in the BH-H-Hall display,
but never seen again in reality after 1945.
PS/ On that note ...
I just read the new 2016 "Blood Flag" novel,
as cited in post #33, and see that it is "dedicated
to the members of the US Army's 45th Infantry
Division, the men who fought their way through
Europe, liberated the concentration camp at Dachau,
and occupied the City of Munich at the end of WW2."

[Lloyds]

[QUOTE=juoneen;7474196]Like Stalin, I too am a believer that AH escaped and the suicide story was a smokescreen.
I have a friend who has a photo of a man who looks like Hitler from behind holding a woman in his arms wrapped in a blanket while there is a hole in the ground seen with a large tree behind the scene, and SS men with something like 9 jerry cans of petrol on the edge of the precipice ready to be dumped.
Was it Eva? Was it Adolf holding her lifeless remains?

Probably not a great idea to be in a photo with the dead Mrs and a few gerry cans of petrol befour running off to start a new life in secret Wonder if he said on leaving listen lads lets keep this to ourselves

[Gaspare]

there were other people that knew of the story..
I heard it from tape a US Army Sgt. that made directly after the war . The tape, and items were sold to a collector who traded it to an old friend of mine. My friend owned the AH ring and the SAAR piece and a Silver salver [that was never awarded] . Also in the box was the small yacht flag, a photo of Blondi [AHs dog] and a small ivory portrait of AHs mother. These items are now all split up and in different collections. I researched the ring , photographed it and after a few years was able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ring was made and presented to AH.

The soldier had for a brief time the items wrapped in the box which had AHs sisters address on it! The diary was soaking wet when found and just thrown aside!! The letter was read to the Sgt. by a German speaking soldier and it mention the items were being sent to the sister for safe keeping and that regretfully although 1st said the BF would be sent he explained it will not and will remain with him [AH] to the end.. The soldier tore away and kept the bottom of the letter with AHs signature and threw the rest away.

There are a handful of others that know this story and have seen the items.
There are conflicting accounts stating that AH was wrapped in a flag when burned. For me its true..others can believe what they want. But if not burned and with AH in the bunker where would the most important thing to the party have gone?

[JoeW]

Interesting discussion.

[QUOTE=juoneen;7474196]Like Stalin, I too am a believer that AH escaped and the suicide story was a smokescreen....................................... .................
There has also been discovered that in Swiss krugerrands there has been found that there is a percentage of dental amalgams in many older coins.
So did Adolf transport gold by special subs in his flight if he did not commit suicide, as the type of person Eva was would not have been able to live knowing he killed 6,000,000 Jews and never told her............../QUOTE]

Huh? Did you mean Swiss Francs? The Krugerrand was first minted in South Africa in 1967.

there were other people that knew of the story..
I heard it from tape a US Army Sgt. that made directly after the war . The tape, and items were sold to a collector who traded it to an old friend of mine. My friend owned the AH ring and the SAAR piece and a Silver salver [that was never awarded] . Also in the box was the small yacht flag, a photo of Blondi [AHs dog] and a small ivory portrait of AHs mother. These items are now all split up and in different collections. I researched the ring , photographed it and after a few years was able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that the ring was made and presented to AH.

The soldier had for a brief time the items wrapped in the box which had AHs sisters address on it! The diary was soaking wet when found and just thrown aside!! The letter was read to the Sgt. by a German speaking soldier and it mention the items were being sent to the sister for safe keeping and that regretfully although 1st said the BF would be sent he explained it will not and will remain with him [AH] to the end.. The soldier tore away and kept the bottom of the letter with AHs signature and threw the rest away.

There are a handful of others that know this story and have seen the items.
There are conflicting accounts stating that AH was wrapped in a flag when burned. For me its true..others can believe what they want. But if not burned and with AH in the bunker where would the most important thing to the party have gone?

Except for the small gold plated Menz pistol now in the West Point Museum, most of the items Gaspare mentions were sold through the Alexander Auction a couple years ago. They are described in this online article by Ron Laytner.
https://issuu.com/edit_international...ation-treasure

[Br. James]

"Quite interesting about the FHH Putsch day
flags being just hours old on 9 Nov 1923. I
would have thought that they at least dated
back to initial use in the January 1923 first RPT.
OFW"

Thanks, OFW. Just to be clear, I have no idea about the origin or the age of the other flags and banners that appeared at the march on November 9th, either the imperial colors or the Bund Oberland flag. "My understanding is that the banner that became known as the Blutfahne was created specially for the events that were to begin on November 8th at the Bürgerbraükeller when Hitler declared that the National Revolution had begun." Other flags may have been made new for those major events, but I have no knowledge of them.

Cheers, and many thanks for such an interesting conversation!

Br. James

[Gaspare]

Thanks Joe! that's a good old story and good to see it again! How could I have forgotten to say the Silver Salver had Germany and the surrounding edge all done in fitted Baltic Amber! Super high quality engraving on it, that beautiful Amber, just a magnificent piece. Luck and fortunate is the collector who has that piece in his collection!

Yes there are other pieces I didn't list here before.. I devote a large portion of my 'Specials' chapter to the AH ring. From the master who designed and made it, to where it is right now, its had a long journey.....
That story is old. Been told many times,,in Penthouse, Argosy, and even a bit of it in the old [serialized] Johnson War Booty book [not the big fat one.]


Anyway,,the collectors that knew about that auction were very lucky! There was no promotion, no fanfare, nothing!,,
some of the items were not even related to AH,,Some items went for very little! The one of a kind , fitted case SAAR piece I heard went for a couple thousand.
I'm not sure the Salver was related to AH in the description [?].. I'm glad a friend got one of the better pieces and again,,for a very nice price! The ring buyer isn't even a military collector. He bought it for historical reasons and its superb craftsmanship...

So that interview was done many years after the war. BUT, the tape was made by the Sgt. shortly after the war... The tape along with some of the items were traded to a old friend of mine in Ohio. On a visit there to interview him he told me he still had the tape and played it for me. The Sgt told of how they were stepping on the box because there was so much water on the floor. Disappointed most of the booty was already taken he began just looking at everything, up ending, double checking and eventually got the box! The document in the box listed everything the sister would have been receiving but said that the 'Partys Flag' I said would be sending I will not. I've decided to hold on to it until the end',..
IF you read thru the old interview Joe posted they show some of the items in the box. That small flag shown is the one I said is the "Yacht flag". That's how this Sgt. said the letter called it[?] maybe OFW can help out on that.
So what was the 'Partys Flag'? We don't know. Nothng was seen of it,,nor mention of it again. Could it be the flag AH was wrapped up in and burned? Some say it was the old LAH standard missing from the pole. But I think AH would have listed it as that,,,besides, the LAH weren't exactly in the best graces near the end anyway. No, in my opinion it was the BF and it went up in flames with its demented 'maker'.
Sorry for the long post,
R.I.P. Bill..

[oldflagswanted]

about the Ray Bily "Blood Victim" flag story.

... story is old. Been told many times,,in Penthouse, Argosy,
and even a bit of it in the old [serialized] Johnson War Booty
book [not the big fat one.] ...

... document in the box ... said that the 'Partys Flag' I said
would be sending I will not. I've decided to hold on to it until
the end',.. IF you read thru the old interview Joe posted they
show some of the items in the box.

That small flag shown is the one I said is the "Yacht flag". That's
how this Sgt. said the letter called it[?] maybe OFW can help out
on that. So what was the 'Partys Flag'? We don't know. Nothng
was seen of it,,nor mention of it again. Could it be the flag AH was
wrapped up in and burned? Some say it was the old LAH standard
missing from the pole. ... No, in my opinion it was the BF and it went
up in flames with its demented 'maker'. ...

Hello Gaspare:
Interesting story, which is also repeated in the Ulric/Bender
DE book (ISBN 0-912138-69-6) on pages 428 to 431, and
includes the Sept 1982 Penthouse Magazine article source.
The flag in the Bily story, and DE book, is the M-1935 DE of
NSKK Standarte M91 "Alfred Janko". This martyr named flag
was said to commemorate the 1923 Munich Putsch and was
kept by Hitler as a personal tribute to him. But actually Janko
died on 27 July 1934 in a street fight which took place in Austria.
Unclear about the source of the flag wrapped Hitler burn part?
OFW
(below-right) Story cited Putsch Martyr "Blood Victim" flag,
said to have been US GI 1945 found in the Munich Fuhrerbau.
*****
(below-2) SS-LAH Standard found by Russians in Berlin 1945.

[Gaspare]

Janko!, Thanks so much. AH must have really revered the guy as to keep the flag all that time then want to send it to his sister for safe keeping!

Maybe not correct but the one time owner of most of this group had a book he'd occasionally show people and in it was written Hitler was wrapped in a flag then rolled in a carpet brought up the steps and set on fire.
Had someone else tell me they saw on one of the history shows one of the survivors of the bunker also mentioned something about AH being wrapped in a flag then carpet and lit afire!
This was all 15 years ago while I was researching the ring for him and really didn't pay too much attention to it all. Could be erroneous info and hear say. Maybe the BF did survive!, I don't believe it though..

Never knew what happened to the Janko flag. My friend Bill did not have it nor did he talk about it,,but it certainly was in the original box! Hitlers mothers portrait was in a private collection for many years but was sold recently. Don't know where the SAAR piece went, nor the Blondi photo.. Shame it couldn't have been all kept together.. OK guys, guess your hunt for the BF is still on!

[juoneen]

More food for thought.http://yournewswire.com/historians-f...f-in-the-head/

http://www.rmbnewsreport.com/DidHitlerSurviveWW2.html

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com...megafile18.htm

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/...-Nazi-cover-up

http://www.express.co.uk/news/weird/...195.1468516697

[der-hase-fee]

Love you long time collectors ! These stories are what keeps me coming back for more. And I am into it for a while.

Anyone concerned the younger generation is not interested ? Just keep telling these stories !