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Billy Kramer

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    #1

    Division Pennant for Review

    Hi gang...I took a chance on this one and decided to pick it up. It is a Flag for an Officer Commanding a Division (Divisionsstander). It is a bit salty with a few tears and some mothing. The flag is made of very thin wool and measures roughly 3' wide and 5' long (at its widest points). Unfortunately there are no marks on the header. I thought at first it might be Imperial due to the level of mothing and wear (what looks like maybe from coal smoke) but it does have that style of stitching in the header that is seen very often in TR manufactured flags, which is unfortunate (to me anyway). However, it does not show that black "rail track" that runs on top of the header on so many TR era manufactured flags.......so I'm not sure.

    Wanted to get your opinions.....this pennant is much bigger than I think I have seen before. Do you all think it is TR era? What size vessel would a Divisionsstander of this size be on? What are your general opinions?

    Thanks in advance!
    Attached Files
    Last edited by Thomas Craig; 03-11-2014, 06:10 PM.
    Tags: None
    #2
    More pics...
    Attached Files

    Comment

      #3
      Division Flag For Review

      one more.....
      Attached Files

      Comment

        #4
        Imo ...

        Originally posted by Thomas Craig View Post
        ...Flag for an Officer Commanding a Division (Divisionsstander).
        ...roughly 3' wide and 5' long (at its widest points). ...no marks
        ...it does have that style of stitching in the header that is seen
        very often in TR manufactured flags, ...it does not show that black
        "rail track" that runs on top of the header on so many TR era
        manufactured flags.......so I'm not sure. Wanted to get your opinions...
        Hello TC:
        Appears 3rd Reich era to me, based on /// woven
        line within the header material. 3'x5'=~91x152cm,
        per the KM Flaggenbuch used on 500 & + ton ships.
        ..... OFW .....
        ..........
        (My 1st WAF Avatar)
        sigpic
        .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

        Comment

          #5
          Thanks OFW...Surprisingly I have not seen many of these around and the few I have seen have been smaller in size than this one. However, since this one is for vessels 500 tonnes and up maybe the others I have seen are fender pennants?

          Does anyone have any idea on value? No, not selling but just curious. I find that I am starting to collect rank flags....or so it seems!!

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Thomas Craig View Post
            Thanks OFW...Surprisingly I have not seen many of these around and the few I have seen have been smaller in size than this one. However, since this one is for vessels 500 tonnes and up maybe the others I have seen are fender pennants?

            Does anyone have any idea on value? No, not selling but just curious. I find that I am starting to collect rank flags....or so it seems!!
            .....and does anyone have any photos showing this pennant in use?

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by Thomas Craig View Post
              ...and does anyone have any photos
              showing this pennant in use?
              TC:
              I have a smaller seen service example in
              my collection, the size flown on U-boats.
              ..... OFW .....
              ..........
              (My 1st WAF Avatar)
              sigpic
              .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by oldflagswanted View Post
                TC:
                I have a smaller seen service example in
                my collection, the size flown on U-boats.
                ..... OFW .....
                ..........
                (My 1st WAF Avatar)
                Thanks OFW....What size is your Division Pennant? Looking at your photo it looks like maybe around 2X3 comparing it to the RKF.

                You said that a 91X152 cm pennant is for vessels 500 tons and up. Maybe this pennant that I have could have been on a Type IXc or IXd u boat (looks like a IXc in your photo) but I am thinking it is probably more likely to be from a torpedo boat or other similiar vessel.

                Do you want to part with the one you have?

                Just checking!!.....
                Last edited by Thomas Craig; 03-12-2014, 12:33 PM.

                Comment

                  #9
                  FS pennant sizes ???

                  Originally posted by Thomas Craig View Post
                  Thanks OFW....What size is your Division Pennant?
                  Looking at your photo it looks like maybe around 2X3
                  comparing it to the RKF.

                  You said that a 91X152 cm pennant is for vessels 500 tons
                  and up. Maybe this pennant that I have could have been on
                  a Type IXc or IXd u boat (looks like a IXc in your photo) but I
                  am thinking it is probably more likely to be from a torpedo boat
                  or other similiar vessel.

                  Do you want to part with the one you have?
                  Just checking!!.....
                  TC:
                  Holding onto my ~50x70cm Flottillenstander, as it came
                  to me circa 1970 from the same WW2 US Colonel who
                  captured my 50x85cm RKF at the Brest U-Boat Pens.
                  FS command pennant sizes listed in the KM Flaggenbuch
                  are Gr-I=50x70, Gr-II=100x140, and Gr-III=150x210cm,
                  with yours being approximately the cited Group-II size.
                  As for use, IMO smaller size flags were used on U-boats
                  no matter their tonnage, as their flag poles were short.
                  OFW
                  sigpic
                  .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by oldflagswanted View Post
                    TC:
                    Holding onto my ~50x70cm Flottillenstander, as it came
                    to me circa 1970 from the same WW2 US Colonel who
                    captured my 50x85cm RKF at the Brest U-Boat Pens.
                    FS command pennant sizes listed in the KM Flaggenbuch
                    are Gr-I=50x70, Gr-II=100x140, and Gr-III=150x210cm,
                    with yours being approximately the cited Group-II size.
                    As for use, IMO smaller size flags were used on U-boats
                    no matter their tonnage, as their flag poles were short.
                    OFW
                    Agreed!

                    I like my new pennant. It's nice and not often seen for sale.

                    Let me know if you change your mind......

                    Comment

                      #11
                      value ???

                      Originally posted by Thomas Craig View Post
                      ...Does anyone have any idea on value? ...
                      TC:
                      From my 2011 WAF t=552507                       posting, back then ...
                      Noted online ... listed as item #150607159014
                      "...flag is made of linen with a printed iron cross
                      emblem, and is marked "Flotillenstd 1.0x1.4" with
                      [Nazi] eagle, and marine M. ...100 x 140cm in size."
                      GBP 390.00 Approximately                       US $619.40
                      OFW

                      Note: 3rd Reich era /// woven line on header.
                      Last edited by oldflagswanted; 03-13-2014, 09:40 PM.
                      sigpic
                      .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Yeah...I paid way less for mine. I think it is really cool so I'm keeping it.

                        Thanks OFW!

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Another ...

                          Originally posted by Thomas Craig View Post
                          ...I paid way less for mine. ...
                          Another sold example.
                          OFW
                          Attached Files
                          sigpic
                          .......^^^ .................... some of my collection ...................... ^^^...

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by oldflagswanted View Post
                            Another sold example.
                            OFW
                            100 bucks 8 years ago....maybe 250-300 bucks today. Who knows?

                            I think I may try to collect as many of these rank flags as I can. Some of those Imperial Rank flags are very nice. I bet they are incredibly rare and pricey!

                            Comment

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