HJ Bannfahne

[Joe B]

Bannfahne 505 , Bann 505 was for the city of Wienerwald Austria . This Flag was listed on a European auction a few moths ago .

[oldflagswanted]

List update ...

HJ-BF list, 12 June 2019
Survived WW2 HJ/DJ Bannfahnen, confirmed by photo (*) list.
HJ-BF photo count = 9 so far...
1. HJ-BF #236, framed one sided, from WAF thread t=463860, photo
... by Hawesj(*),(location) Duisburg-Nord/ Ruhr-Niederrhein/ West
2. HJ-BF #434, JH(*) via another collector. (location) ???
3. HJ-BF #99, from WAF t=215502 , GE(*), (location) Ruhr-Ennepe/
... Westfalen/ West
4. HJ-BF #274, from WAF t=949930, M35(*), (location) ???
5. HJ-BF #341, from WAF t=949930, joecool(*), (location) ???
6. HJ-BF #656 & oe27, WS(*), (location) Südost Steiermark, HQ at Graz.
7. HJ-BF #426, WS(*), (location) district 29, Süd-Württemberg, Horb HQ.
8. HJ-BF #188, joecool(*), (location) Hamburg Germany.
9. HJ-BF #505, joecool(*), (location) Wienerwald Austria.
************************************************
All are invited to add more examples, or point out corrections too

[wilhelm Saris]

Great to see what has survived. But there are still about 900 to go!

[oldflagswanted]

To the nines ???

Great to see what has survived. But
there are still about 900 to go!

Interesting, 9 survive out of 900.
Likewise, at a price ~$9K USD ea.
OFW

[Cracked]

OFW, I think your No6 is incorrect. Should be 545/oe27 Graz. The HJ Research Forum has a couple more listed that you don't seem to have yet:

https://www.hj-research.com/forum/f4...wn-exist-6262/

As you say though, very, very few of these survived.

[oldflagswanted]

List corrections & additions ???

HJ-BF list, 12 June 2019
Survived WW2 HJ/DJ Bannfahnen, confirmed by photo (*) list.
HJ-BF photo count = 9 so far...
1. HJ-BF #236, framed one sided, from WAF thread t=463860, photo
... by Hawesj(*),(location) Duisburg-Nord/ Ruhr-Niederrhein/ West
2. HJ-BF #434, JH(*) via another collector. (location) ???
3. HJ-BF #99, from WAF t=215502 , GE(*), (location) Ruhr-Ennepe/
... Westfalen/ West
4. HJ-BF #274, from WAF t=949930, M35(*), (location) ???
5. HJ-BF #341, from WAF t=949930, joecool(*), (location) ???
6. HJ-BF #545 & oe27, WS(*), (location) Südost Steiermark, HQ at Graz.
7. HJ-BF #426, WS(*), (location) district 29, Süd-Württemberg, Horb HQ.
8. HJ-BF #188, joecool(*), (location) Hamburg Germany.
9. HJ-BF #505, joecool(*), (location) Wienerwald Austria.
************************************************
All are invited to point out corrections , or add more examples.

[Joe B]

I own HJ Bannfahne #188 . I paid 10,000 Euro for it . It is not in the best condition but it is from a well known city "Hamburg" . It seems that 10,000 is the average price of one now as another HJ Bannfahne # 505 sold for 13,000 euro . A DJ Bannfahne sold for around 7 ,000 euro a few years ago .

If you figure in the early and later patterns of Bannfahne ( the numbered scrolls being the major difference ) and both the HJ and DJ styles , I figure up to 2,580 were manfactured . ( I could be wrong ) From what I have seen of documented surviving examples , I believe there are 13 HJ and 10 DJ Bannfahnes that are known to still exist .

[oldflagswanted]

List addition ...

HJ-BF list, 12 June 2019
Survived WW2 HJ/DJ Bannfahnen, confirmed by photo (*) list.
HJ-BF photo count = 10 so far...
H1....HJ-BF #236, framed one sided, from WAF thread t=463860, photo
....... by Hawesj(*),(location) Duisburg-Nord/ Ruhr-Niederrhein/ West
H2....HJ-BF #434, JH(*) via another collector. (location) ???
H3....HJ-BF #99, from WAF t=215502 , GE(*), (location) Ruhr-Ennepe/
....... Westfalen/ West
H4....HJ-BF #274, from WAF t=949930, M35(*), (location) ???
H5....HJ-BF #341, from WAF t=949930, joecool(*), (location) ???
H6....HJ-BF #545 & oe27, WS(*), (location) Südost Steiermark, HQ at Graz.
H7....HJ-BF #426, WS(*), (location) dist. 29, Süd-Württemberg, Horb HQ.
H8....HJ-BF #188, joecool(*), (location) Hamburg Germany, 10K Euros.
H9....HJ-BF #505, joecool(*), (location) Wienerwald Austria, 13K Euros.
H10...HJ-BF #238, WW2GM.com(*), (location) Kleve-Geldern
........Ruth Niederrhein West, $9K USD. Ref: WAF t=7502515 p3.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Notes: HJ/DJ Bann flag total made joecool estimate = 2580
**************************************************
All are invited to point out corrections , or add more examples.
**************************************************
(below) From this list #H10, and in WAF t=7502515 ...
listed as ...Ref #: C-MFBP-1
RARE HITLER YOUTH BANN 238 KLEVE-GELDERN
RUTH NIEDERRHEIN WEST. (Gefolgschaft Fahne) "Historical background:
During the Third Reich the Nazi Party (NSDAP) had numerious organizational
flags.HJ unit flags existed in company, battalion, and regiment level. "The
highest level of [the] HJ organisational flag" being the Bann eagle pattern.
"Each Bann had only one of these flags and it normally resided in the Bann
Headquarters." HJ membership could begin at age 14, by assignment to a
Gefolgschaft (company), the smallest unit of about one hundred kids - there
were thousands of Gefolgschafts with corner patch flags. Each HJ Bann had
several Gefolgschaft within it, with the number of Gefolgschaft within a Bann
seemly depend on location. For example Bann number 28 (Koblenz and
Mittelrhein) had 19 Gefolgschaft numbers. Confusion exists as some Banns
were later renumbered, and only the lower number Banns were associated
with the traditions of the old Kaiser era regiments . In 1936 there were 368
Banns, in 1937 480 Banns, and 945 by 1945. Many HJ unit flags were presented
at the Reichsparteitag in Nürnberg by Baldur von Schirach. The first 200 or 300
maybe, perhaps more, corresponded to the old Regiments of the Kaiser era, for
example Bann 1 was Konigsberg in East Prussia. After they ran out of regimental
numbers, they had no further system of assigning the Bann numbers.
Description:
This is a very, very rare parade standard for Hitler Youth Bann 238 Kleve-Geldern
/ Ruhr-Niederrhein/ West. Very few (less than 10) are known to have survived.
This flag has three equal height horizontal stripes (red, white, red), and is made
of cotton bunting material. In the center is an embroidered outstretched-winged
eagle (in black) holding a sword (left in white) and hammer (right in black). Above
the eagle is a three part scroll (in white) with the numbers 238 (in black) on the
center pannel. The flag has the unique embrodered feather zig-zag lines as seen
on all authentic Bann flags. HJ Bann flags contain enhanced embroidery detail
eagles on two sides, with a specific unit designation scroll above the eagle. The
Sword is symbolic of Nationalism, and the Hammer of Socialism. The hammer
and sword was used extensively by the Hitler Youth to symbolize their commitment
to National Socialism. There are a number of small period repairs, but the flag is
still very strong and bright with its original pole rings intact. Size: 67" long 50"
high Condition: 7-8" $ 9,000
********************
(below-2) showing correct woven zig-zag embroidery pattern.

(below-3) Online source listed gallery view summary.

[Cracked]

All are invited to point out corrections , or add more examples

I did but I won't be offering assistance again. By the way, you are still missing many flags. Why not just acknowledge that another militaria forum has collated this information much better and then link to it? Save people some time? No offence meant

Incidentally, this part of your last post is incorrect in many aspects - typical of dealers...:

"RARE HITLER YOUTH BANN 238 KLEVE-GELDERN
RUTH NIEDERRHEIN WEST. (Gefolgschaft Fahne) "Historical background:
During the Third Reich the Nazi Party (NSDAP) had numerious organizational
flags.HJ unit flags existed in company, battalion, and regiment level. "The
highest level of [the] HJ organisational flag" being the Bann eagle pattern.
"Each Bann had only one of these flags and it normally resided in the Bann
Headquarters." HJ membership could begin at age 14, by assignment to a
Gefolgschaft (company), the smallest unit of about one hundred kids - there
were thousands of Gefolgschafts with corner patch flags. Each HJ Bann had
several Gefolgschaft within it, with the number of Gefolgschaft within a Bann
seemly depend on location. For example Bann number 28 (Koblenz and
Mittelrhein) had 19 Gefolgschaft numbers. Confusion exists as some Banns
were later renumbered, and only the lower number Banns were associated
with the traditions of the old Kaiser era regiments . In 1936 there were 368
Banns, in 1937 480 Banns, and 945 by 1945. Many HJ unit flags were presented
at the Reichsparteitag in Nürnberg by Baldur von Schirach. The first 200 or 300
maybe, perhaps more, corresponded to the old Regiments of the Kaiser era, for
example Bann 1 was Konigsberg in East Prussia. After they ran out of regimental
numbers, they had no further system of assigning the Bann numbers"

[oldflagswanted]

From previously on the WAF ... DJ-BF

HJ & DJ BF list, 12 June 2019
Survived WW2 HJ/DJ Bannfahnen, confirmed by photo (*) list.
Total on WAF server HJ/DJ-BF photo count = 12 so far, more to come...
H1....HJ-BF #236, framed one sided, from WAF thread t=463860, photo
....... by Hawesj(*),(location) Duisburg-Nord/ Ruhr-Niederrhein/ West
H2....HJ-BF #434, JH(*) via another collector. (location) ???
H3....HJ-BF #99, from WAF t=215502 , GE(*), (location) Ruhr-Ennepe/
....... Westfalen/ West
H4....HJ-BF #274, from WAF t=949930, M35(*), (location) ???
H5....HJ-BF #341, from WAF t=949930, joecool(*), (location) ???
H6....HJ-BF #545 & oe27, WS(*), (location) Südost Steiermark, HQ at Graz.
H7....HJ-BF #426, WS(*), (location) dist. 29, Süd-Württemberg, Horb HQ.
H8....HJ-BF #188, joecool(*), (location) Hamburg Germany, 10K Euros.
H9....HJ-BF #505, joecool(*), (location) Wienerwald Austria, 13K Euros.
H10...HJ-BF #238, WW2GM.com(*), (location) Kleve-Geldern
........Ruth Niederrhein West, $9K USD. Ref: WAF t=7502515 p3.
----------------------------------------------------------------
D1....DJ-BF Guatemala, OFW(*), (Location) Stuttgart AO HQ 1945 captured.
D2....DJ-BF Paraguay, OFW(*), (Location) "...", Ref: WAF t=725376.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Note(a): HJ/DJ Bann flag total made joecool estimate = 2580
Note(b): For more on AO HJ/DJ-BF see Bender Military Advisor
magazine OFW article (Winter 1994/95 Vol-6, #1 issue). **************************************************
All are invited to point out corrections , or add more examples.
**************************************************
(below) My Central America example, and another farther south.

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[oldflagswanted]

List addition ...

<table id="post6355209" class="tborder" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="6" width="638" align="center" height="63" border="0"><tbody><tr valign="top"><td class="alt1" id="td_post_6355209">HJ & DJ BF list, 12 June 2019
Survived WW2 HJ/DJ Bannfahnen, confirmed by photo (*) list.
Total on WAF server HJ/DJ-BF photo count = 13 so far, more to come...
H1....HJ-BF #236, framed one sided, from WAF thread t=463860, photo
....... by Hawesj(*),(location) Duisburg-Nord/ Ruhr-Niederrhein/ West
H2....HJ-BF #434, JH(*) via another collector. (location) ???
H3....HJ-BF #99, from WAF t=215502 , GE(*), (location) Ruhr-Ennepe/
....... Westfalen/ West
H4....HJ-BF #274, from WAF t=949930, M35(*), (location) ???
H5....HJ-BF #341, from WAF t=949930, joecool(*), (location) ???
H6....HJ-BF #545 & oe27, WS(*), (location) Südost Steiermark, HQ at Graz.
H7....HJ-BF #426, WS(*), (location) dist. 29, Süd-Württemberg, Horb HQ.
H8....HJ-BF #188, joecool(*), (location) Hamburg Germany, 10K Euros.
H9....HJ-BF #505, joecool(*), (location) Wienerwald Austria, 13K Euros.
H10...HJ-BF #238, WW2GM.com(*), (location) Kleve-Geldern
........Ruth Niederrhein West, $9K USD. Ref: WAF t=7502515 p3.
H11..HJ-BF #446, OFW-computer files(*), (Location) ???
----------------------------------------------------------------
D1....DJ-BF Guatemala, OFW(*), (Location) Stuttgart AO HQ 1945 captured.
D2....DJ-BF Paraguay, OFW(*), (Location) "...", Ref: WAF t=725376.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Note(a): HJ/DJ Bann flag total made joecool estimate = 2580
Note(b): For more on AO HJ/DJ-BF see Bender Military Advisor
magazine OFW article (Winter 1994/95 Vol-6, #1 issue). **************************************************
All are invited to point out corrections , or add more examples.
**************************************************</td></tr><tr><td class="alt2">
</td><td class="alt1" align="right">
</td></tr></tbody></table>

[Cracked]

Hi OFW,

Bender article or not, the information is still incorrect in many aspects. 1994 was a loooong time ago and research has come along leaps and bounds since then as you know. Anyway, no offence meant

[wilhelm Saris]

Hi OFW, Bender article or not, the information is still incorrect in many aspects. 1994 was a loooong time ago and research has come along leaps and bounds since then as you know. Anyway, no offence meant

I wonder how you manage to get information "Cracked" and I wonder if you ever held a HJ-Bann-flag or the version for the DJ yourself. I wonder if you ever have seen flag regulations from the HJ-organization.

I think OFW does a lot of good work here at the forum in relation to flags. Show me some of "your work" and convince me about your knowledge. So, a simple question what was the name for the highest ""ranked""
flags before the Bann-flags came into being and show me such flag in use….

[Cracked]

Hello Mr Saris, I don't know about Mr OFW but you are certainly a researcher of note. However, please do not think that you therefore have any kind of implied right to criticize those whom you do not know. Yes, I know of the 1935 flag regulations which standardised HJ, DJ, BdM and JM flags and pennants - I could hardly explain my "cockiness" without that knowledge could I? May I ask that you provide the regulations for youth flags prior to this standardisation? I know that you cannot.

So onto your challenge: the highest flag within the HJ prior to the introduction of the Bannfahne was the Gaufahne. I could point you to publications from early in the Third Reich where these are shown but that would be pointless as you already know the answer to your challenge.

In closing....

the dealer description posted by Mr OFW earlier in the thread which you and he clearly think is a true representation of the facts.... so that contains no errors?

[wilhelm Saris]

The earlier flag is the Gaufeldzeichen and I wrote about it in my gorget book. There is also a photo of how such flag does look like.
I do not want to discuss things further on with you, as it does not make sense. I understand you have all the knowledge, so why discussing!