Foreign firearms in wehrmacht

[MadsenLMG]

Foreign firearms in wehrmacht, such as for exemple Mosin, Thompson, Webley and SVT40 that never was produced in German occupied areas, where they marked for wehrmacht?
Acceptance marks?

Or they was taken one day and put into service Next day without the time for ”Deutsche ordning”?


Regards Herman

[wandering38]

Yes and No. They were NEVER marked with the WaA marks used on german production, but they were sometimes marked with HZA markings from the military overhaul depot system. Sometimes modifications were made to things like the position of sling swivels etc. sometimes nothing was done....

[MadsenLMG]

Yes and No. They were NEVER marked with the WaA marks used on german production, but they were sometimes marked with HZA markings from the military overhaul depot system. Sometimes modifications were made to things like the position of sling swivels etc. sometimes nothing was done....

So most often it’s impossible to say of it’s been used ny wehrmacht or not?

[jtb1967]

So most often it’s impossible to say of it’s been used ny wehrmacht or not?

I would think not. I've seen photos of various American, Russian, etc. arms being carried or at least held by German soldiers during WWII. I'd say the vast majority of would have no way to being identified as being used by the Wehrmacht.

[me6_130]

I guess you are talking about captured weapons, not about foreign contract weapons for the Wehrmacht...? As I believe these later ones did have WaA stamps.

Carles

[wandering38]

I guess you are talking about captured weapons, not about foreign contract weapons for the Wehrmacht...? As I believe these later ones did have WaA stamps.

Carles

Correct. Weapons made on contract for the Wehrmacht in foreign countries often (but not always) had WaA. Captured foreign weapons did not have WaA, but sometimes did have HZA depot markings.

[MP41]

Like this?

Matt

[timg]

Like this?

Matt

Classic pic of captured weapon use, but.....unlikely to have gone through any kind of bulk capture/inspection regime then reissue. Although truth be told they did TRY to get the guys to hand in specific types to spread them more evenly. But if it gave you a physical advantage in the field over and above your original issue one would YOU hand it in or keep it.

Certainly captured in bulk would be the major forces overcome in Poland, France, Belgium, Italian, UK.

And in line with the above comment, I know the Volks army were issued with a lot of captured older types etc towards the end of the war, however, I have always wondered what became of all the captured British small arms after Dunkirk. Some artillery was repurposed as it is recorded as being used in Russia by some units in Sixth Army but I have only really seen one pic of a Bren being used by rear echelon...........where did all of the Enfields go?? (Plenty of ammo captured)

Anybody seen any credible use by rear army forces and not just oportunistic use on the battlefield??

Regards

Tim

[me6_130]

Classic pic of captured weapon use, but.....unlikely to have gone through any kind of bulk capture/inspection regime then reissue. Although truth be told they did TRY to get the guys to hand in specific types to spread them more evenly. But if it gave you a physical advantage in the field over and above your original issue one would YOU hand it in or keep it.

Certainly captured in bulk would be the major forces overcome in Poland, France, Belgium, Italian, UK.

And in line with the above comment, I know the Volks army were issued with a lot of captured older types etc towards the end of the war, however, I have always wondered what became of all the captured British small arms after Dunkirk. Some artillery was repurposed as it is recorded as being used in Russia by some units in Sixth Army but I have only really seen one pic of a Bren being used by rear echelon...........where did all of the Enfields go?? (Plenty of ammo captured)

Anybody seen any credible use by rear army forces and not just oportunistic use on the battlefield??

Regards

Tim

I believe most of captured weapons would have been used in the Atlantic Wall bunker units. There was a thread were someone found the weapon inventory of a couple of units. Most MGs were foreign origin. I guess it was easier to supply the right ammo to static units than those on the move.

Carles

[bmg17a1]

Foreign MGs acquired by German forces by any means and used by them were issued a specific model designation. Examples of a few are:
Breda M30 6.5mm - MG 099(i)
Breda M37 HMG - MG 259(i)
1914 Hotchkiss HMG - MG257(f)
Madsen - MG 157(f)
M24/29 - MG 116(f)
BREN - MG 138(e)
Chauchat - MG156(f)

Country of origin denoted by the letters in the parentheses.
Apparently some small arms were stamped with Waffen marks such as Waa4 as this has been noted on some examples in the US. It's not clear whether this Waa is a fake or not.
The above info is from a small booklet with many pictures compiled by Tom Laemlein called "German Machine Guns 1914-1945". It includes a section devoted to pictures of captured weapons and the German designations.
FWIW

[timg]

I believe most of captured weapons would have been used in the Atlantic Wall bunker units. There was a thread were someone found the weapon inventory of a couple of units. Most MGs were foreign origin. I guess it was easier to supply the right ammo to static units than those on the move.

Carles

Absolutely agree with your comments re ammo supply et al and static units.

But like I said, the only photo I have seen of for instance a Bren on a driebein, was annotated as on the west wall as AA Defense. ( No problem with the Bren for them per se as it was essentially exactly the same in operation as per ZB26/30 so easy for them to use no problems)

I have seen a 40mm bofors on the end of a jetty in France, however no provenance that it was captured version.

I have also seen a German in Crete with a Bren, and one being used by German forces during the Arnhem Drops, both of which were incidental battlefield use.

I have no evidence of what happened with all of the SMLE that were captured or battlefield pickups post Dunkirk of which their were very many.

Regards

Tim

[bmg17a1]

The booklet noted below shows many pics of the use of captured MGs by regular troops and others in many different locations occupied by the Germans as well as in combat. MGs in odd calibers such as the 8x50mmR Mannlicher were probably not used too far afield of a supply of that ammo. The occupation of France and other countries would have provided a supply of ammo for that countries small arms. Any captured MGs in 7.92 could be used anywhere and any combatants' ammo collected such as 54R for example. Caliber conversion of captured MGs occurred such as Russian 1910 Maxims to 7.92 occurred during the war and before, PPSh to 9Para, etc. FWIW