Info Please: Erma EMP, MP40 and MP44

[Panzer Bob]

Hello all! I recently picked up these three demil weapons. I am a babe in the woods when it comes to these, so I was hoping some of the firearms collectors here on WAF might be able to help out. I am trying to determine a fair market price for them, since they do not fit in with my collecting interests. By fair, I mean what is a price that represents a win-win for both parties and will allow me to move these relatively quickly.


First up...
An Erma EMP. From what I have been able to find out from a friend and some Internet sleuthing, this is a Spanish version of the submachine gun. It was either exported to Spain or made under license there. The bolt action seems to function as intended and the magazine is removable. It appears a plug of some sort was put into the barrel in front of the magazine well.

[Panzer Bob]

The MP40 (MGC68)

This is a replica MP40 made by the Japanese firm of MGC. It is apparently an early version of the replica, which is more detailed. It certainly has the heft of a real submachine gun. The bolt works; the magazine is removable. The butt stock can be extended. The sling is weathered. Prices seem to run the gamut on the Internet and eBay (with the ones I'm seeing on eBay apparently being later version of the replica, which were less detailed and made out of more malleable components due to changes in Japanese laws).
The only flaw is that there was some damage done on the right-hand side in the vicinity of the magazine well, where the plastic broke off (see image).
This certainly would look nice as a display piece, unless you have the $20K or so to buy a real one!

[Panzer Bob]

Mp44

Finally, an MP44. From what I can gather, this is an ex-DDR version of the submachine gun. Unfortunately, the bolt has been welded partially open. Almost all serial numbers/marking have been removed somehow, with the exception of the ones seen in the images. The stock is well weathered (4451 carved into the stock), as is the sling. Again, looking for some background on the piece and a fair price to ask (I cannot find any for sale after a cursory glace on the Internet).
I will put some additional images in the next post.
Thanking everyone in advance,
Bob Edwards

[Panzer Bob]

MP44 (Part 2)

The remaining images...

[Alan Smith]

Hard to tell for sure without handling it in person, but the EMP appears to be what collectors term a "dewat" machine gun . . . . "dewat" meaning "Deactivated War Trophy". Such an item has a fully intact receiver tube, but has been rendered unserviceable (typically via the barrel being plugged and welded to the receiver). Because of the fully intact receiver tube, a so-called "dewat" machine gun remains subject to the registration and transfer requirements of the National Firearms Act of 1934 (the "NFA"), as enforced by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.


On the EMP, can you tell us what has been done to it other than the chamber end of the barrel closed with welding (and fused to the receiver via the pin and welding visible on the upper left side of the barrel jacket)? Such treatment is very typical of old "dewats" found here in the US. Again, caution is in order: if the receiver has not been destroyed, then the EMP remains classified as a "machine gun" and is subject to the NFA.


The "MP40" is (as you noted) a non-gun replica; it was never a "firearm" under U.S. law and, as such, is not regulated by U.S federal law.


The "MP44" appears to have been created using some original parts from a machinegun, but with the original receiver destroyed so as to eliminate it from being a "firearm" under U.S. federal law. Thereafter, some of the remaining parts were added to a solid aluminum block that is configured to generally replicate the receiver portion of an MP44. Because it has no "receiver" (as said term is defined under US law), it is not a firearm and not regulated by federal law. I suspect that the "MP44" is one of the non-gun replicas put together and sold here in the US by International Military Antiques ("IMA") some 20+ years ago.

[pitfighter]

Hard to tell for sure without handling it in person, but the EMP appears to be what collectors term a "dewat" machine gun . . . . "dewat" meaning "Deactivated War Trophy". Such an item has a fully intact receiver tube, but has been rendered unserviceable (typically via the barrel being plugged and welded to the receiver). Because of the fully intact receiver tube, a so-called "dewat" machine gun remains subject to the registration and transfer requirements of the National Firearms Act of 1934 (the "NFA"), as enforced by the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

It may look that way, but it is not - it's an IMA non-firing dummy.
La Caruna Spanish licensed version of the EMP in 9mm Largo -
The firearms original receiver tube has been removed and replaced with a nonfunctioning off sized tube, the bolt has been cut in half and welded in place, and the barrel and chamber have been welded up, the barrel was also drilled from beneath on mine.
There are quite a few about, it is not a Dewat -

The MGC Replica is an early type (made in Japan as opposed to just Japan on guard, telescoping bolt as opposed to just a spring) with what looks like an original sling.
Early ones would have a venting barrel and unmolested bolt - they fired paper caps in a brass cartridge - not plastic plug caps those were later.
Later they blocked the barrel completely and shaved the lower bolt face off for US sales.

Concurring with Alan - The MP44 is a non matching parts kit assembled on a dummy cast receiver.

[Petroleum 1]

The vintage parts used to make up the MP44 display gun have value.

[Panzer Bob]

Additional questions

Thanks for the input, gentlemen!


Since these are all "dummies," would it be better to try to sell them here on the forum or would I be better served on a different venue?


The prices also seem to vary quite a bit, depending on the source.


The Erma was sold by IMA for $600 on its site (no longer available) and appears to go for a little over $400 on eBay.


I haven't seen any of the MGC MP40's for sale -- at least the early ones, which seem to have more collector value -- so I'm not sure how to assess a value here.


Finally, since the MP44 appears to have original parts, what might it be worth? One other question regarding the MP44: If the outer portion is original, then why are the markings removed or X'd out? Does anyone know what manufacturer WaA 21 was?


Many thanks in advance!
Bob

[Alan Smith]

Yes - the more I thought about the "receiver" on the Spanish copy of the EMP, the more questions I had . . . . something just did not look right. Looking over a German EMP last night (see photos), very obvious and substantial differences can be seen in a real EMP receiver vs. the non-gun "dummy" used for the Spanish copy featured in this thread.


I am, however, surprised that the creator of the non-gun Spanish copy drilled and welded the barrel/receiver . . . . there was no need to destroy these parts, as that's all this compilation is: a grouping of parts affixed to a mock-up receiver. Also, the statement by OP that "the bolt action seems to function as intended . . . " threw me off a bit.

Good discussion of the non-guns; very informative.

[STG44]

Thanks for the input, gentlemen!

Finally, since the MP44 appears to have original parts, what might it be worth? One other question regarding the MP44: If the outer portion is original, then why are the markings removed or X'd out? Does anyone know what manufacturer WaA 21 was?

Many thanks in advance!
Bob

Wuttembergische Metallwarenfabrik code "awt" WaA21

Original marking were X'd out after the war when the guns were refurbished, force matched & put into storage.

Is the barrel on the MP44 still serviceable?

[JoeW]

Interesting that the BATF and Replica Models Inc. thought the early MGC68 MP40s to be so realistic, that an official BATF non-gun letter was printed and furnished with the "gun".

[pitfighter]

Hi Bob,

I'd be very interested in the MP44 dummy for my collection - feel free to PM me.
Missing all receiver and internal parts knocks it's value a bit.
The dummies are probably worth more dismantled and sold in three parts, grip, stock and barrel - if you have time and motivation.
I buy a LOT of MP44 parts and I know a dozen other collectors who also do.

I have a few of the MP40's already - $350-$500 - they sometimes ask more, but don't move much as there are so many alternatives for a person wanting an MP40 replica now.

The Spanish Erma copy - $350-$500 - Just need to find someone who wants it. I had one on GB for a few months of recycled auctions until it sold for about $400, one bidder.

Beyond that it's tough to estimate.
The above are in my experience selling and buying in the US, and not any kind of guarantee or blue book, everyone will have a different experience.

Pit.

[herd118]

The MGC MP40 sling isn't the correct one, it looks like a copy of a K98 sling.