Bergmann LMG15 n.A. (#3645)

[Pak36(r)]

Alan,

an outstanding specimen! Thanks for alerting me to this post, as I have not been on Wehrmacht Awards for years. Believe it or not, I have your gun referenced in my research. I was incorrect in saying that the LMG15n.A in Devil's Paintbrush was a privately held US example - it is of course from the MOD Pattern Room. However, it is 15 years since I have opened the Bergmann files, so memory was a bit rusty. The connection with Devil's Paintbrush and your gun was that Dolf and I corresponded frequently back then, and when I was looking for US LMG15 examples, he put me onto the erstwhile owner of yours. He and I were after feedblocks at the time and I ended up making two complete blocks and a spare body. In my records, I have your production number down as 802, although there is a '?' mark next to the entry.

Another most excellent thing about this post is the photo of the four German assault troopers with the LMG.15n.A in front. This is the first photo I have seen of the gun variant with the G98 lange sight instead of the flip op rearsight post. Note that this is the way it was made as the barrel jacket ventilation slots are different to accommodate the setback on the foresight post. This is turn was required to preserve the sight radius as the Lange sight's V notch is set back further than that of the flip up rearsight's.

[Alan Smith]

Pack36(r):

Great to have you on the Forum - welcome back!

Ok - I'll start with a little more history on #3645 and how I acquired it; you appear to be well-acquainted with Mr. Goldsmith and some prior ownership details of this gun. Bottom line is that the person who owned it when you were corresponding with Mr. Goldsmith later divested himself of possession of all firearms, with the MG's being sold off over a period of years. I ended up coming in fairly late in the game when everything had been sold, less the LMG15. Attached are the photos that I had to go with in making the acquisition decision. Again, all of the other guns in the photos had been sold off; the friend who put me into the deal acquired the LMG14 Parabellum for himself).

Anyway, I was super excited to acquire the LMG15, even with the feed block, barrel and bipod being missing. To be clear: I acquired the LMG15 under the working assumption that odds were about 99.99% that no original feed block would ever become available for it. Also, it had the previously mentioned (earlier in thread) missing barrel, with a solid steel mock-up being in place. Like the feed block, I assumed that no original barrel would ever become available. No problem . . . I was happy to have an unusual MG from WWI even if missing parts.

About 6 months after BATFE approval was received and I took possession of the LMG15, my buddy who put me into the deal found #5609 in parts kit form and put me in touch with the owner: a deal was quickly struck. I can't say enough nice things about the integrity of the people who "hooked me up" with the gun and, later, facilitated the parts kit coming to me so that LMG15 #3645 could be put back together into original and fully-functioning form. Great guys who were really focused on doing the right thing to put the parts kit together with the registered gun, with none of this price-jacking "I've got super rare parts and you need them" mess . . . just 100% great guys who wanted to see history preserved!

[Alan Smith]

On the "production number", I believe that you are talking about the small font number "1322") that is found (internally) on several major components of the LMG15. Here are a few shots of the production number on the #5609 parts kit. The "1322" number is found on the underside of the top cover, as well as inside the rear portion of the receiver. It may be on other parts as well; I have not done an exhaustive survey of the parts for the presence of the "1322" number and, quite frankly, only took notice of same after reading your post.

[Alan Smith]

Anyone interested in these old German MG's should pick up a copy of the new book pictured below; it contains a wealth of information about all of these various types of MG's (including about 20+ pages of text and photos of the LMG15).

[Alan Smith]

In studying the #5609 parts kit with #3645 live gun, I noticed a distinct difference in the cocking handles. On the earlier production gun #3645 the cocking handle is hollow. On the later production #5609, the cocking handle is hollow, but the top portion rounded off. See photos below for details.

[Alan Smith]

Sorry about the "sideways" photos; I'll try again using Internet Explorer versus Google Chrome and see if that makes any difference.


Here is the "802" production number found on the underside of #3645.

[Alan Smith]

One more try with the new book:

[Pak36(r)]

Thanks Alan, it is good to see such a dedicated site for the LMG15. A nice bunch of guns was owned by the previous owner of #3645 for sure, but you got the best one I think.

The domed head on the bolt handle seems to come in just after #3645, as the earliest I have seen is #3980. This may have added a little weight to the bolt handle, which they should have been trying to avoid. On heavily used guns, there is a fatigue crack that goes through the rear of the bolt via the firing pin retaining pin hole. This makes the entire bolt handle snap off if let go. I will take a picture for my next post. I guess the immediate benefit must have outweighed the longer term theoretical problems.

I have never seen a muzzle booster on any guns out here, and similarly, none in any WW1 photos. The LMG15 (old pattern) aircraft gun has no thread in the muzzle of the jacket, but the later LMG15n.A does. Hence, I thought the threading would have been for the BFA. Given that a muzzle booster is designed to accentuate the recoil acceleration, this gun would have really ripped through the ammo. However, I don't think that this would have done the gun much good noting its lightweight air cooled barrel and fatigue issues in the bolt handle and the rear corners of the barrel extension's locking block hole. I can also see them tearing off the hinged claw on the device that withdraws the fresh cartridge from the belt. Maybe boosters were intended to be issued but the negative consequences caused a change of mind?

I ordered a copy of German Machine Guns today. You should be getting a commission from Verlag! I will be very interested to compare their LMG15 section with my own draft article from 2010. all the best, D

[Alan Smith]

My observations re: boosters are the same as yours: I have not seen any in period photos. The only boosters I am aware of are a gun in the British Imperial War Museum (#6342); the ex-Dick Wray gun (#1786); and the one I have (#3645). As to blank firing adaptors, one is visible in a period photo shown earlier in this thread.

I assume that the IWM gun's booster is original WWI German military issue, given that the gun is part of a respected museum collection (but I have no personal knowledge of the matter).

As noted earlier in the thread, upon close exam it is readily apparent that the booster on #3645 is a reproduction . . . albeit very well constructed and finished with a nice "old fashioned" rust blue. The only "mistake" I can see is that the wall thickness of the booster's flash cone is too thick (with my sole point of reference being the wall thickness found on the flash cones of MG08 and MG 08/15 boosters). I've seen this same flaw in reproductions of the Japanese Type 99 LMG booster, where the wall thickness of the booster cone on reproductions is noticeable thicker than originals. I'm not a machinist . . . perhaps there is some difficulty in machining the correct (i.e. more thin) wall thickness on the booster cone, so we see repros take the "easy way out" and leave it too thick? This is an interesting issue to me, as the reproduction LMG 15 booster obviously took a lot of work, skill, etc., so I'm puzzled as to why the booster flash cone walls were left "too thick" when all of the other work looks perfect?

Also, I assume that whoever made the reproduction LMG 15 booster had an original to go by . . . but I have no personal knowledge of the matter. I have been told by s that the former owner of #1786 (Dick Wray) was an accomplished machinist and made lots of replacement parts for items in his MG collection, so I suspect that he made the reproduction found on #3645 (and it may also be that the booster on his gun #1786 is likewise a reproduction). Mr. Wray was good friends with several weapons museum curators in England and visited with them often, so perhaps these connections gave him access to an original to copy?

[Pak36(r)]

Alan, I think that the UK MoD example has the best chance of being original, although I wondered whether it may have been made by the UK Small Arms Committee or others when testing the limits of the LMG15 design. It would be interesting to see this particular booster disassembled to see what production marks it had. If original German, it will have them consistent with the rest of the gun. The two unique things about this gun #6342 are that it is displayed with the muzzle booster and the small tripod. The serial number itself indicates that it is part of the last confirmed batch of 1500 guns, so accessories introduced very late in production?

The actual internal function of the booster remains a mystery to me. Is it essentially like an MG08 booster component by component? Out of the 20+ guns I have surveyed, the only barrel that has threaded muzzle was for gun #3185. Looks like it took a screw on piston like an MG08 or a piston/bearing sleeve like an MG08/15.

I have pondered the booster issue from the reproduction aspect as well. If I were the SAC or even Bergmann's, I would have just taken an 08 or 08/15 booster and remanufactured the rear section to fit the LMG15n.A.

For remanufacture in more modern times, the critical issue, no matter how good you are as a machinist, is the flash hider cone. The thinner you make it, the more the piece "sings" as the thin sections find their resonant frequencies. This can be deafening as well as cause vibration of the piece in the lathe chuck that will ruin the surface finish. There are ways and means around this, but it would take some trial and error in terms of machining sequences to get it perfect. Then again, when you have already invested considerable time on attempt #1 on a one off job that is raising difficulties in the last cut, it is best to "leave well enough alone". I would think this is what has happened here. ATB, D.

[Pak36(r)]

Alan, Some photos to show a bit more detail:
1. LMG 15 and LMG15n.A barrels side by side. Pretty much the same and interchangeable, but fins on LMG15 barrel are thinner. Main point is to show serial number format with the decimal point and suffix number.

2. crack at the rear of the bolt through firing pin retaining cross pin hole, emphasising why the bolt handle should be kept light and why a different firing pin arrangement would have been preferable.

3. The corkscrew firing pin - presumably designed to soften the shock of the hammer hitting the firing pin, as the hammer is itself quite delicate. I only have a pin for the LMG15, which has no other means of shock absorbing. Examples of LMG15n.A bolts have a separate spring loaded buffer nib at the rear, so did they also have the corkscrew pattern firing pin? I would think this would have been painful to make.

Probably enough for now, the uploading from computer has just dropped off...D.

[Alan Smith]

Here are a couple of additional photos of the markings on barrel #3036 (including the "17" date); I hope this helps your research.

[Pak36(r)]

Thanks Alan, I will update my spreadsheet. Do you know what type of firing pin #3645 has?

[Pak36(r)]

Just got my copy of German Machineguns in the mail last night. A beautiful book with lots of rare stuff well photographed in colour. The LMG15s pictured are already in my spreadsheet. It is an exceptional example presently in Europe.

The LMG15 chapter is interesting for some of the comments regarding the deployment of the guns tactically, as this makes sense given the light air cooled barrel. The round count limited to 200 is believable as is the account of the barrel glowing red hot after 500 rounds continuous.

The theatres to which deployed is also interesting and must come from official records? That said, there seems to be some variance with where examples are known to have been captured.

I have some different thoughts regarding the firing from open vs closed bolt, and production numbers are vague. Also no mention of the G98 rearsight types, as this may have been relevant to the commentary on the effective range of the weapon and its 400m fixed sighting.

Nevertheless, an excellent reference book I am very happy to have in my library, and I thank the authors for their efforts in producing it . Cheers, D.

[Pak36(r)]

And another thing.....
German Machine Guns also has a useful production table of all types of German machineguns.

As far as the LMG15 a.A goes, my survey of surviving guns indicates that the aircraft gun variant had 1500 produced from late 1915 to 1916, where about 360 were produced to the end of 1915.

The production of the LMG15n.A starts in Jan 1917, but the table only goes up to the end of Sep 1917 with a total of 1959 guns made up until then. It looks like the production was getting up to about 300 per month, give or take.

Assuming that production remained at that level until the end of the war, that would equal about 7600 all up. This accords with highest observed serial number of 737x dated 1918. However, there are lots of wide gaps in the survey at that point, and the 300 per month does not account for any improvements in production rates that may have occurred in 1918. D.