"KI" Luger

[Matt Weber]

If you were with us about a month ago, we discussed a gun that one of our members had that he reffered to as a "KL" luger. Since he was unable to provide us with any further information, I had to do a lot of searching for information for myself.
I've talked to 4 luger experts, and searched through 3 different books on lugers. All the stories I got were the same, so I believe that they are correct.

First off, the luger is not a "KL" luger, but it is a "K.I." luger. "K.I" stands for "Kadetten Institut" rework (or institute of cadets).
In 1933 the Germans set up a cadet training school for SA and SS officers.
Mauser was contracted to rework a few hundred WWI Military lugers. All of these lugers will be either "DWM" or "Erfurt" marked pieces. Mauser re-worked these guns, removed the original dates and in its place marked them "K.I." "1933". Serial range could be any serial number for a WWI Military luger from DWM or Erfurt. They should all have the stock lug. Extractor should be marked "Geladen". They will all have the 4" barrel. Proof marks will vary with some of the following; "14, 15, 16, 17, 28, 37, 38."
Safety lever will be marked "Gesichert". They should have the checkered walnut grips. Most will have original WWI proof markings, however some will have been removed by Mauser and have the Waffen Amt proof on right side of reciever, and/or Nitro proof on left side.

These are quite rare lugers, and price would be in the several thousands for a good condition one.
Be very cautious of fakes of these! Since this gun is basically a WWI rework (remember WWI DWM model lugers are the most common luger to find, along with a 1920s commercial model.), any good gunsmith can get a nice WWI DWM luger and remove some of the dates and add "K.I. 1933" and call it a "KI" luger! So be very careful!!

However, in all my research, I have found only one book that states that these pistols were ever issued to or used by concentration camp guards as previously stated. This is the only source that states that, and can find no other books or experts that agree with it.

Hope this information helps you all!
Matt

[Del Panfini]

KL Luger

I felt compelled to reply since your topic was regarding me and my luger. I don't want to get into another debate and beat the proverbial dead horse again but since you are an expert and I am not, I must say in regards to your last statement that you found no evidence of the KI luger being issued to concentration camp guards, if you looked in Jan Still's book on Wiemar lugers, you would have seen that he had stated that they were issued to concentration camp guards. On the other side of the coin, in the book that you obviously looked in, Lugers at Random, it states what you have said in your research that it was issued to cadets. You did not have to look in the books to come up with your research because I have already told you this. Again I am not saying either story is true, I am only telling you what I read in both of the said books with the Jan Still book being the most recent. Anyone reading this that is interested in this subject please read Jan Still's book on Wiemer lugers and you will see for yourself what I have stated. I am sure this was years of research as opposed to someone just looking into a book and forming their own opinion. I did not like how you made me look like a liar in making up my own story on the KI luger. I only put on the forum what I had seen in these two books and I had mentioned both stories. This is the last time I will address this topic. I had showed my luger to a few luger experts in the past and it is as right as rain. Like I reviously stated, it was vet purchased in the 70's. Some of the experts called it a KI and some called it a KL. It is only what I have read and been told. So again, before you come up with such a positive statement that you have found no evidence that you have not seen it called anything but a cadet luger and state that fact on an open forum, just look into Still's book on Wiemar lugers and add that to your research. Hope this helps for your information. DEL

[Matt Weber]

Del,

Once again Del, I never said I was an expert on lugers! I never called you a liar, and I never said that your gun was not correct!
I merly was looking for more information on it, and you refused to provide it. So I did some searching for information myself, and shared it with the rest of our memebers. That is what this forum is for! Why are you still hounding me for that?

If you read my post you will notice that I checked with 7 different sources, and they all matched! The book you refer to did not match up with the other 7 so I didn't use it! However, to please you I will edit my post to show that.

Matt

[JoeW]

Kl. 1933 Lugers

The marking on the Luger chamber is not KL.or KI.
It is marked Kl./1933 My example is a Simson piece which is serialed in a seperate range as they all were, none over three digits. The "theory" of Kadetten Institute put forth by Kenyon and certain Luger Dealers is totally without historical foundation. Such a school never existed nor have the proponents of that farce ever provided a shread of evidence. Jan Still examined several theories in his books, among them
concentration camps. That too is a theory that has little substantiating evidence. The subject has been discussed at length over the years in the pages of AutoMag. One new theory being that the Kl. indicated a rework piece by the Reichswehr arsenal at Klausdorf in 1933. Similar markings are found on Reichswehr period weapons like Zn. for the arsenal at Zeithain. Another theory proposed the guns to be for the Werkschutz at an German aviation company whose company abbreviation is Kl.
when used with their production airplanes.

When searching for information in reference books, try to recognize if the author has presented any evidence for his statements. Often you will see that the "truth" is merely a perpetuation of sales myths created years ago.

[Matt Weber]

Thanks Joe!

That is exactly the point I was trying to make when this subject first arose! Somehow it got turned around into making it look like I said that reference books where all wrong!??? I didn't say that.

You put the words together much better than I did! Thank you!
So basically nobody knows anything about these "KI" lugers? Just rumors and stories huh? I would like to find out the truth, but somethings you just can't find! Oh well.

I just saw CJ last week! Picked up some books, a few nice minty holsters, and also a nice early Browning 1922.
He told me that he just talked to you about a Dreyse .32 that he has. He showed it to me. What a nice piece. Looks like it was for a land customs officer!? Never seen one like that before? Maybe I'll take it off CJs' hands for him?

Anyway, He's doing good, and we still plan to go to the SOS show in Feb. together! Hopefully we'll see you there!

Matt