I just received my Certificate of Authenticity from Steve Stepan for my SS Walther PP. While many people are familiar with Steve's excellent book, "SS Walther PP/PPK Identification & Documents", they may not be aware that for a small charge Steve will supply a certificate of authenticity for your gun. Like it or not, we will be passing these guns along at some point and definitive documentation will only enhance their value. Steve is a real gentleman to deal with and his book and the documentation process has greatly increased my enjoyment in collecting Walthers.
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Quite why it needs authenticating is beyond me. It is what it is. I hope you didn't pay too much for the piece of paper. -
Can you tell us what that "small fee" was for this COA?
Matt
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Matt,
The fee for a COA is $50.00. Providing this service is not something that I chose to do. I have better things to do and the cost covers time and materials. And for that petty sum, my name and reputations is on the line with every COA issued.
Since I published the Black Book, collectors seem to have decided that I have become an authority on the subject and perhaps I have. Researching through millions of documents provided me with a wealth of knowledge, hence the book.
Following is a recent email received..."Steve, Not to be presumptuous, but have you thought of providing letters for the SS issued PPK's and PP's? Colt charges over a hundred dollars per gun. The Cody Museum provides them for a bit less. It seems to me that you have done the research so why not go one step further and provide a letter of provenance? People would love it. Just a thought." I have been receiving similar letters requesting my services for years.
As to the reason for desiring such a document, Kabulguy has explained that in his post clearly. Validated authenticity, enhanced value and make selling should the collector choose to do so, much easier.
As to cost...in addition to Colt and Winchester, PSA/DNA (Signatures such as Ted Williams and Mickey Mantle on baseballs) and PCGS (certifying and grading rare silver and gold coins) require a fee well over a hundred dollars and if they do not certify, they keep your funds anyway! In spite of that, I have paid for COA's from all of them, because they validated my collections and enhanced value.
Sipo is correct the item is what it is. Naturally without a COA or a book clearly identifying the rarity, it's just a gun. But with the book and COA it's much more. SS issued PP/PPKs are now showing up on auction sites, pointing to the accompanying Black Book and COA as reason to pay much, much more for the item on auction.
But he surely must realize that his Sicherheitspolizei/SD identity credentials are just what they are as well, pieces of paper and nothing more. I hope when he or his heirs someday go to sell his collections, he should expect to receive no more than any other plain piece of paper. Just a few dollars each. Good luck on attempting to convince some buyers willing to pay, that they are anything more than just pieces of paper.Last edited by Tepo911; 05-20-2016, 06:51 PM.Comment
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Steve,
Thank you for the reply. I fully understand the reason behind the COA. I just was wondering what the fee was? Since kabulguy just mentioned "a small fee." That can be a wide range to many people.
I do have one question though Steve. This particular COA states this pistol is a variation 4. Variation 4 is known as this; (Serial number on right slide flat, with "P" suffix after serial number on slide, frame, and magazine. High polish "crown/N" proofs. Serial range- 157xxxP-165xxxP. The Crown/N proofs start disappearing around the 165xxxP range.)
However, the serial number, and "eagle/N" proof, clearly put it in the variation 6 range. (serial range above 204xxxP, "eagle/N" proof). Please see the pinned thread on SS/RSHA PP pistols I posted 6 years ago. I believe you even contributed to that thread?
Can you please clarify this?
Thanks,
Matt
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Come on Steve, don't be so hard on SiPo. You know that his statement is the common view of advanced militaria collectors, whether it's guns, rings or other items. A Colt or Winchester letter provides a great deal more than a COA and they aren't really that. They provide documentation from the factory concerning the firearms in question. And they cost a great deal more. But they make no guarantee as to the authenticity of the gun in question. Only its provenance from the factory. Slabbed coins or cased comic books are necessary as a single source for valuation and condition. But even now, there is some question about their authenticity.
A COA is fun to make and not very difficult. I found the format on line and used it with MS Word. Legacy is issuing them. And I fully intend to provide one with those guns in my collection when I eventually sell. I started preparing them last year. While I haven't found the hologram that you use with the number, I think the 100% guarantee sticker is nice.
And you know that those Ausweis and identity documents in SiPo's collection have a collector's value far above mere paper, especially given SiPo's standing as an expert in the field of German Police Discs and Identity Documents. He could legitimately produce his own COAs given his sterling reputation on the police forum of WAF.Comment
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Hi Matt,
Yes I can clarify. When I did my research for the Black Book, I decided early on to keep things as clear and simple as I could. I decided that it would be confusing enough to understand the basic differences between variations. I knew that a change in proof marks from Crown/N to Eagle/N in some peoples minds constitutes a new variation. But if you go down that road, where do you stop? And even more so for the PPKs. Do we call high polish versus wartime rough finish separate variations? Milled rear sights versus integral? etc. etc. I felt that in order to make it easier for collectors, I would only designate different variations based on major identifying factors.
Where the PPs were concerned, that would make for just FOUR variations. Muzzle Marked, Numbered Frame and Slide, P Under and P Suffix. Other changes, which to me were minor, such as proof changes were addressed and referred to as sub-variations.
Same with the PPKs. I addressed them and referred to them as sub-variations. This was purely my decision in order to simplify identification. When you pinned and described the PP differences, I saw what you had done different than I, but since I'm not the controlling arbiter, I said nothing. You never compared my Black Book descriptions with your pinned descriptions. And that was fine, it changed nothing in the overall scheme of things. As Sipo said...it is what it is.
As to Certificates of Authenticity...most concerns which provide this service are very careful to state that they have NO VESTED or FINANCIAL INTEREST in the item being inspected and certified. I am aware that Legacy which is an upstanding honest firm does this...both certify and sell what they certify. They can do what they want, of course, but personally I have a problem with it. If I were purchasing an expensive gun from them and authenticity was a concern, I would request that they obtain a second COA from a DISINTERESTED qualified party.
And to the point, anyone who is considering the purchase of a rare and expensive PP/PPK based SOLEY on a Certificate of Authenticity papared by the seller, in my opinion is making a mistake and asking for trouble. I did exactly that years ago and wound up with a specious gun which became problematic when trying to obtain a refund.
Personally, I have not, nor will I EVER sell a gun from my collection with an elevated asking price based SOLELY on a COA prepared by me. To me, that is a conflict of interest and would be dishonest.
Of course, that's just me, and I'm casting no aspersions on anyone else.
Buyer BewareLast edited by Tepo911; 05-21-2016, 02:28 PM.Comment
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Steve,
Thank you for clarifying the variations. That's what I assumed happened. I personally don't have your black book to compare it to the variations I listed on the pinned thread here. I believe your book actually was release after I pinned that thread? (I may be wrong since I don't have it)
But specifically on the PPk thread, I asked if everyone agreed with my variations I listed, and you and Joe made some comments, and I corrected the variation list. However, nothing was mentioned on the PP thread.
In those threads, the PP has 6 variations. the PPk, has 7. I don't think that's too confusing to explain? I think it's much more confusing to add sub-variations myself.
But to each his own.
I totally agree with you about dealers selling COA with items! I won't comment any further.
Matt
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Matt,
The first edition of the Black Book came from the printer early in 2010, some months before you pinned your list of variations. I assumed that you had obtained a copy. But that's not a problem. The basic details were the same.
The second edition went to print in 2012. I had severely underestimated the demand for a book of that nature and it sold out rapidly. In retrospect, that was fortuitous. The first edition shook all sorts of things out of the woodwork, which I was able to include in its' successor (The Gold Edition)
At least one was significant and should be reflected in your pinned information. A second change...not so much.
In 2011, a new and significant and to me, exciting SS issued PPK variation was discovered and confirmed. It is called a "K Suffix Muzzle Marked" and a number have been found. I won't go into detail here except to say that the present serial number range is from a low of 192 083 K to a high of 192 925 K. Leaving room for a possible nine-hundred in between but not yet found. Examples of this new variation (Designated in my book as a Variation Type Three) have been discovered in Vienna, Germany and in the USA. Of course, being found between two well known variations, required all that followed had to be pushed back one variation number. A little confusing, but there was nothing to be done for it.
The second change, which is a natural progression, is the expansion of some of the serial number ranges as more guns came to light. Lower ranges became yet lower and upper ranges became higher.
Sorry Matt, I hope that's i've explained adequately and not just muddied the waters.Comment
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Steve,
Thanks for the info. Cear as mud!
We'll have to meet up sometime at a show or something so we can have a long talk about SS/RSHA guns, over some cocktails of course!
Yeah, I pinned that thread back in June 2010. I knew your book came out sometime then. Not surprised your books sold out. If you look at the two pinned threads, the PP one has 19,000 views, and the PPK on has over 40,000 views
I've personally never seen a PPk, muzzle ring numbered, K suffix gun yet. Do you happen to have one you can show us here? Is it K under? or K after?
Is it possible that there is the same variation of PP pistols as well?
If you have evidence of a new variation of PP, or PPk, perhaps you can provide Bill or Willi with it, and they can make changes to that thread? I'd prefer the thread to be up to date, and accurate as possible of course.
Matt
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Matt,
Please go to post #21 of your pinned thread on SS PPK variations. On 11-25-2010, I posted a long, long description of the newly discovered "K Muzzle Marked" along with photos. Everything that you're asking for has been here on your forum since 2010.
As far as a PP of the same type, of course, anything is possible. If an order had been placed by the SS/RSHA for PPs during that same time frame, they likely would also have been muzzle marked in the same way. But none have come to light up to this point. And it seems that everything having to do with this issue crosses my desk, sooner or later.Last edited by Tepo911; 05-25-2016, 06:29 AM.Comment
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Steve,
I just looked back at the thread. I do remember seeing that PPk now. However, there are no photos of the slide serial number shown!?
Do you have photos of the slide as well?
Matt
PS- I think we hijacked this thread Steve!?
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If anyone is interested in following the discussion. Steve started a new thread. Here is the link;
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=863104.
Matt
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As for having a COA for a SS PP/PPK I thought about getting one for mine. Possibly frame to hang on the wall in my collection room. I have a number of PP's and to most people they are all the same gun when seen as a group. True but a RJ is not priced the same as a common one in same condition or any of the other variations I have. What I'm getting at here if something happened to me my brother or other family members seeing it with pictures may check into them in more detail and see the the different markings and realize there may be price differences before sale. There are no collectors in the family and not much interest, so what you may have said to them in the past most of the time goes in one ear and out the other sounding like Bla Bla Bla.
Just my personal thoughts on this and some of the other reasons stated.
Steve,Comment
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Very important thoughts. Steve's COAs serve to explain the connection of the gun with the information presented in the books. Likewise my COA was intended to provide the historical informationn I personally researched of the pistol for the owner and future owner. Whether it would be for one of the Gau shooting prizes, a Sauckel presentation pistol or Reichsbank PPK from my collection. It would be ridiculous to think that the pistol would be worth more just because a document accompanies it that provides well researched documentation of its history. Such a document does not appraise its condition. The pistol is worth what someone chooses to pay for it. And to suggest that an owner certifying the history of a pistol he is selling is being dishonest is an insult. And as you suggest, such a COA does identify the pistol for valuation purposes in the future.Comment
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