Be carefull - Sturmpistole ...

[BrunoH]

Hi,
Just for you to be aware... Hope you are not participating to this auction.
The item for sale is a (very nice) replica...

http://www.ebay.de/itm/LP-Leuchtpist...3D271845627559

Regards

[bmg17a1]

I am interested in what you see in the pics of the LP on the E-Bay site that suggests to you that it is a reproduction?
Do you have pics of an example of a proven reproduction to compare to the auction pieces?
I am curious why would a repro be made of such a complex piece that has such a limited collector appeal and market? Especially an accessory that is made of complex stampings and complex design and construction?
If it is a repro, it appears to be an extremely exact copy in all mechanical and design and construction properties. Ageing of the wooden box and metal fittings, metal surface, and the fabric on the butt is perfect, too perfect to be a repro in my estimation.
I have no connection to the auction or seller, but have been involved with vintage MGs and firearms for over 50 years and spend most of my time with the metal, finishes, materials, construction techniques and so forth of vintage MGs in my long time MG repair and restoration business.
what am I missing here?

[BrunoH]

Hi
Get a closer look and compare with these pictures





There are many 'bad' details'... trust me. I would have like that this set is original.... Pretty sure that other members here will give their feeling on it.

Regards

PS: It's not a misleading way to eliminate competitors in an auction ...

[bmg17a1]

I spent some time looking at the pics of the pistols with the stock and sight on Google and there are examples of variations in production. Comparing the Google examples with the EBay example only tells me that there are differences in production from maker to maker. Perhaps you can point out specific details that indicate a reproduction and not differences in production techniques and design.
Where needed, I have made repros of various individual MG parts. An example is the cocking handle for an MG 81 which Is made using stamped sheet metal for its parts. This handle is simple compared to the very complex sheet metal stamping and forming on the stock attachment and the body of the sight.
Faking these stamped parts with such extreme accuracy and detail is just not credible where there is no value to be obtained with the expenditure of an incredible amount of time and skill. Machined parts are easy to reproduce as fakes, but stamped parts are extremely difficult to reproduce without making dies to produce the required shapes and raised textures. Manufacture of dies is extremely expensive in time and labor and it is just not credible that anyone would spend an exorbitant amount of money and time to reproduce an item that isn't worth much.
As noted before, my full time business is repair of vintage MGs and my explerience includes using other resources to make parts or to make them myself. There are parts that cannot be accurately reproduced with current CNC technology because earlier machining techniques used to make MGs pre-WWI, interwar and through WWII no longer exist. Specialized techniques like EDM can be used, but the parts are still identifiable as reproductions. Stamped parts just cannot be easily reproduced and for accurate duplication dies must be used. Even dies will not be identical to the original and will leave imprints on the metal that can be identified as not original.
So, I believe these parts are not reproductions for the above reasons. If there is evidence that refutes my propositions, I would be glad to see it and will be mightily impressed if these parts are actually reproductions.
There is a spectacular machinist in Switzerland, Leon Crotter, who has made 1/2 size miniatures of the 1st model FG42. His manufacture of these remarkable little guns is documented in the book "Death From Above", second edition. To reproduce the miniature FG he had to make his own sheet metal stamping dies to correctly form the grip frame and buttstock and the pics show the degree of difficulty and the high level of skill and technique to do make the dies for these parts. This is a good example of what is required by a non-production shop to make complex stamped parts. If the book noted above is not available, Crottet's story with pics of how he makes his miniatures might be on Goggle.

[Höhe 112]

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...t=Sturmpistole

[bmg17a1]

Thanks for the referral to the site. My interest Is not about the tubular stock and the one piece folded steel butt plate and fabric coved cushioned butt piece, since those parts are very easy to duplicate. The pics I have seen on Google show the two-piece folding butt parts that are similar to the stock on the MG13, of which I own an example, so I am familiar with that.
So, to refine my inquiry, is the frame that is attached to the pistols also reproduced, or is the objectionable reproduction parts confined to just the tubular stock and butt parts? The attachment frame is the part that I can't see the value in reproducing.
If someone is reproducing the entire stock including the attachment frame, cross bolts, hinge, etc, etc, then these complete stocks must be manufactured with a certain amount of production in mind given the serious setup involved to do ribbed stampings and folded joints. If that is the case, have the makers and the "factory" been identified and located?
Thanks for your patience.

[BrunoH]

..... Faking these stamped parts with such extreme accuracy and detail is just not credible where there is no value to be obtained with the expenditure of an incredible amount of time and skill. Machined parts are easy to reproduce as fakes, but stamped parts are extremely difficult to reproduce without making dies to produce the required shapes and raised textures. Manufacture of dies is extremely expensive in time and labor and it is just not credible that anyone would spend an exorbitant amount of money and time to reproduce an item that isn't worth much. .....

Hi,
Take original pieces, go in Viet Nam (for instance, where the human working hour costs less than a 1 €/$ and where working quality is quite well respected), and you will get some very nice reproductions (just a small quantity production). Trust me, people aware of that 'offshore' solution will never share their contacts and say that's repro. Unfortunately, it's life... supply and demand law. Some collectors looking for rare items become sometimes blind and don't want to hear truth or admit they have been ...
Have a nice day
Best regards

[me6_130]

There is a guy in france, well know for his repro items, which he sells at E-bay as miminina or similar, or snipershop (or similar). He sells without saying they are repro. They are very well made and you have to be an expert to tell the difference. If they were cheaper than original I would probably buy some as fillers or replacement, but he sells quite expensive.

Carles

[bmg17a1]

I am, of course, well aware of shops in other parts of the world that make repros and I have a few here that were made in the seventies. The MG34 topcover for the double drum is a classic example in the US and a quantity were made that I believe that came from France. Perhaps from the fellow that Carles mentions in his post, but I don't know. The MG collector community in the US is not awash in a wide variety of repro items, although repro MG parts are now more common and International Military Antiques has been having a variety of repros made of various vintage MG accessories for many years. MG08/15 100 round drums and steam port covers faked Imperial marked fusee covers for the 1905 Russian Maxim, Lewis mechanical drum loaders and other things. Most are of only fair quality and are clearly repros.
So, apparently the whole assembly of the stock in the first post has been reproduced, and not just the tubular stock and buttplate. How about the box?
I find this rather amazing simply because of the complexity and the clear very high quality, except for the welding of the tubular stock to the hinge, of the work. I wish other repro outfits would have as high standards!!
in this day with the internet, it should not be too difficult to follow the trail back to the importer by talking with purchasers and then to the maker. I know of other businesses that have been tracked this way, for better okr worse for the maker.

[Höhe 112]

hi,
take original pieces, go in viet nam (for instance, where the human working hour costs less than a 1 €/$ and where working quality is quite well respected), and you will get some very nice reproductions (just a small quantity production). Trust me, people aware of that 'offshore' solution will never share their contacts and say that's repro. Unfortunately, it's life... Supply and demand law. Some collectors looking for rare items become sometimes blind and don't want to hear truth or admit they have been ...
have a nice day
best regards

+1

[BrunoH]

As in the Bermuda Triangle, it has disappeared .....

[Mike P.]

Hi
Get a closer look and compare with these pictures





There are many 'bad' details'... trust me. I would have like that this set is original.... Pretty sure that other members here will give their feeling on it.

Regards

PS: It's not a misleading way to eliminate competitors in an auction ...

This is the first I'm seeing this thread and , I just want to clarify something so there is no confusion from Bruno's post above . The Sturmpistole he posted is mine and it is 100% correct , a real one that I found years ago in an Antique shop in a village almost 3 hours north of NYC ...it came from a Veterans estate and cost me only $300 . The dealer had no idea what he had and I was not about to educate him ..I made him an offer and got it. It was pure luck , wish it happened more often lol . One thing though , mine does not have a Blued or Parkerized style finish , as you can see it has some sort of plating done to it which gives it a late war look and feel. But the Barrel insert is very well made , you can see the quality machining and the exact fit (and markings) .I have had many offers on my Sturmpistole but I am not interested in selling it. If you visit the French page that used my pictures , you can see better closeup shots http://leuchtpistole.free.fr/Sommair...rmpistole.html -and when you compare mine to those tan painted ones , you can see the difference fast . I don't trust any of the Tan examples out there