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**bodes** · 06-08-2015, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by Ingsoc75 View Post

For my fellow US collectors.

Let's say you meet a veteran's widow or a daughter/son or a widow.

You mention you are into collecting guns and they say "I have something you may be interested in."

They bring out a MP44 or a MP40 or some other machine gun and say that it was their husbands or dads gun that they brought back from WW2.

This machine gun has NFA papers and all and they wants to know who much it's worth because they want to sell it.

What would you do? Tell them that you would happily buy it for say $200 (the price of the NFA stamp) or tell them it's actual worth?

Unless they live under a rock, they likely have researched the value of an MP40/44 on the internet......In that case, it can become a sticky issue.....To offer them $200 might show you a quick exit out the door......

I would start by letting them say what they want for the item....IF that is $200, offer them some more.....Maybe a grand or more.....IF you say too much like $2K , they will know what they have is valuable and could expect more.....Good Luck, Bodes

**Wilhelm** · 06-08-2015, 07:52 AM

I don't like the idea of ripping off widows. I got a Helm from one and paid her a fair price.

**Darrell** · 06-08-2015, 08:23 AM

Originally posted by bodes View Post

Unless they live under a rock, they likely have researched the value of an MP40/44 on the internet......In that case, it can become a sticky issue.....To offer them $200 might show you a quick exit out the door......

I would start by letting them say what they want for the item....IF that is $200, offer them some more.....Maybe a grand or more.....IF you say too much like $2K , they will know what they have is valuable and could expect more.....Good Luck, Bodes

I'd be surprised if they did. Many have no idea what this stuff is worth and all it does is bring up bad memories of a time when their spouses would never speak about. I talk from experience and my aunt who had some WW2 bring backs of her husband. She wanted to rid herself of the stuff and had no idea what it was worth. She didn't really care in fact.

Unknown .. I'm sure much stuff ended up in the garbage without our knowing (uniforms ...???). However, you don't just toss guns in the garbage,

**Alan Smith** · 06-08-2015, 09:31 AM

For me, honesty has paid off in these situations. If the registrant is deceased, then to transfer the gun to you (or anyone else - including an heir who wants to keep it) the family is going to have to jump through the normal process of transferring a MG pursuant to the National Firearms Act of 1934, plus with the added issue of dealing with a deceased registrant (i.e. estate issues). With estate guns, the process is governed by procedures implemented by BATFE's "National Firearms Act Branch", such procedures requiring the family to establish heirship of the gun and with a lawful heir signing the NFA transfer papers to whomever is going to receive the gun. Appropriate backup documentation will also have to be submitted to BATFE, to document the registrant's death and to demonstrate the purported heir's legal standing to act for the deceased registrant.

I've bought several estate NFA items in situations as you describe. Typically (unless the seller has already taken a position as to what price he/she wants to get out of it) I provide the family with information regarding the range of current retail selling prices for the type of MG in question, recognizing that with MG's you can expect to see a spread of several thousand dollars between high and low. We then settle on what everyone agrees is a "reasonable" retail price. As for terms of a sale to me, I offer to pay the heirs 50% of retail value, plus with me handling all legal work (I'm an attorney), preparation of BATFE transfer documents and paying applicable transfer tax, all as needed to get the gun papered in my name.

I have found that this arrangement works well, as the families seem particularly relieved to have a buyer who can make the transaction as hassle-free as is possible (given the legal issues in play) and, particularly, without the heirs having to incur any legal fees to address the estate transfer issues. I've had a lot of fun with these deals and it gives me great satisfaction to be part of straightening out the mess that is created when the registrant has passed (often with no will and/or no will having been probated). A recent highlight for me was the successful completion of an MP-40 transfer (ayf 43) that came from a vet of WWI and WWII: he was born in 1895 and died in 1980 with no will probated. Even so, some 33 years after his death, we were able to track down the heirs and get everything straightened out so that the gun remains a fully-transferable MG that I very much enjoy having in my collection.

Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress

**ugafx4** · 06-08-2015, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Alan Smith View Post

For me, honesty has paid off in these situations. If the registrant is deceased, then to transfer the gun to you (or anyone else - including an heir who wants to keep it) the family is going to have to jump through the normal process of transferring a MG pursuant to the National Firearms Act of 1934, plus with the added issue of dealing with a deceased registrant (i.e. estate issues). With estate guns, the process is governed by procedures implemented by BATFE's "National Firearms Act Branch", such procedures requiring the family to establish heirship of the gun and with a lawful heir signing the NFA transfer papers to whomever is going to receive the gun. Appropriate backup documentation will also have to be submitted to BATFE, to document the registrant's death and to demonstrate the purported heir's legal standing to act for the deceased registrant.

I've bought several estate NFA items in situations as you describe. Typically (unless the seller has already taken a position as to what price he/she wants to get out of it) I provide the family with information regarding the range of current retail selling prices for the type of MG in question, recognizing that with MG's you can expect to see a spread of several thousand dollars between high and low. We then settle on what everyone agrees is a "reasonable" retail price. As for terms of a sale to me, I offer to pay the heirs 50% of retail value, plus with me handling all legal work (I'm an attorney), preparation of BATFE transfer documents and paying applicable transfer tax, all as needed to get the gun papered in my name.

I have found that this arrangement works well, as the families seem particularly relieved to have a buyer who can make the transaction as hassle-free as is possible (given the legal issues in play) and, particularly, without the heirs having to incur any legal fees to address the estate transfer issues. I've had a lot of fun with these deals and it gives me great satisfaction to be part of straightening out the mess that is created when the registrant has passed (often with no will and/or no will having been probated). A recent highlight for me was the successful completion of an MP-40 transfer (ayf 43) that came from a vet of WWI and WWII: he was born in 1895 and died in 1980 with no will probated. Even so, some 33 years after his death, we were able to track down the heirs and get everything straightened out so that the gun remains a fully-transferable MG that I very much enjoy having in my collection.

Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress

Great post and very informative. I especially appreciate the last post. With no will, and a death 33 years prior, getting the heirs and correct paperwork is a momentous task. Thank you for putting in the effort to save an MP40.

**bodes** · 06-08-2015, 01:09 PM

Originally posted by Darrell View Post

I'd be surprised if they did. Many have no idea what this stuff is worth and all it does is bring up bad memories of a time when their spouses would never speak about. I talk from experience and my aunt who had some WW2 bring backs of her husband. She wanted to rid herself of the stuff and had no idea what it was worth. She didn't really care in fact.

Unknown .. I'm sure much stuff ended up in the garbage without our knowing (uniforms ...???). However, you don't just toss guns in the garbage,

In fairness, i probably shouldn't have answered this question as I haven't bought items directly from a veteran (or their spouse) in like 15 years.....I also in 30+ yrs. collecting have never come across a widow or next of kin with an item that could potentially have a $20-30K price tag on.....

And as for Wilhelm, "fair price" is a subjective term.....You could ask 1000 people what they thought a fair price was for something, and could easily get 1000 different responses....Bodes

**Alan Smith** · 06-08-2015, 01:13 PM

Glad you liked the "save" story on the MP-40 (and, yes - it took a lot of work). If you want more details, check out this thread:

http://184.172.36.50/forums/showthread.php?t=578914

It really is a labor of love to work these deals, as it is very satisfying to be able to preserve the fully transferable status of the guns (and, of course, nice to pick up a new item for my collection). Also, as you can see on the MP-40 thread, my close work with the family in dealing with the estate issues often gives me an opportunity to gain their cooperation in documenting the history of the gun and/or the veteran's combat service. Sometimes the families have photos/documents they will share; other times they assist me in obtaining such materials from archives (where a family member must make the request).

**MikeP** · 06-08-2015, 01:29 PM

I have been accumulating this stuff since a kid in the early 60s when there was little value on many things.

Saw the rise in prices, but was raised to respect people and their situations.

It is more likely than not, that most folks have no knowledge of value or going prices.

I have seen a few local items recently, and offered to appraise or help them sell off something.
At my age, I don't need more stuff.

A while back on one of these boards, some kid was braying like a jackass because he had bought a rifle at garage sale for few bucks because the old lady selling it thought it was broken.

There is a line between a bargain and outright cheating.

I would like to discuss that over an incident involving a Stug wrapper many moons ago, while slowly strangling an individual, but that's another story.

**Ingsoc75** · 06-09-2015, 06:17 AM

I'm not in this situation. It was something that I've often thought about if I was ever in a situation like this.

Are NFA C&R weapon prices what they are because of GCA/FOPA (which creates a finite supply and larger demand) or would they be the prices they are because of their historical value?

**Bill in VA** · 06-09-2015, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by Ingsoc75 View Post

I'm not in this situation. It was something that I've often thought about if I was ever in a situation like this.

Are NFA C&R weapon prices what they are because of GCA/FOPA (which creates a finite supply and larger demand) or would they be the prices they are because of their historical value?

Econ 101 - supply and demand, mostly, with a good bit of internet thrown in for good measure.

922(o) halted the new registration of machine guns and set a finite limit on the number of transferrable guns. That was in 1986. The internet as we know it really didn't begin to become as broad and ubiquitous as it is nowadays until the mid-1990s...almost ten years after the passage of 922(o). Prior to the advent of the modern internet machine gun ownership was still a shadowy part of the gun world there was a huge amount of mis-information about NFA ownership, with a fair number of people not even knowing that NFA devices (i.e., machine guns, sawed-off shotguns and rifles, suppressors, destructive devices and AOWs) were legal to own. Once the internet grew as large and pervasive as it is now, more and more people not only learned that these things were actually legal, but they learned how to go about acquiring and owning NFA devices.

My best friend's old brother was into machine guns back in the early 1980s (pre '86) so I knew a little about them myself - that they were legal to own - but nothing about the mechanism of ownership. It wasn't until 1999 when I bought my first machien gun - a Thompson submachine gun - that I really became versed in the ins and outs of the NFA. Back in 1991/1992 I passed on an amnesty-registered Longbranch Sten. My local dealer had taken in trade from the local PD. He traded a 1.5:1 new M16 (i.e., post '86) for old M16 (i.e., transferrable.) The PD threw in "that old Sten gun" as a freebie to my dealer. He offered it to me at $800. He also had a couple of tube Stens for $450. I passed on both. (I know, hindsight is always 20/20...shoulda, coulda, woulda, right?)

I paid $3500 for my TSMG in 1999 from the same dealer. He offered me an HK MP5A3 sear gun for the same price. In 1999 I also bought an M11/Nine for $550. The seller threw in a Coastal Guns suppressor at no charge. (I still had to buy the tax stamp, so I guess it ultimately cost me $200.)

Prior to 1986 and 922(o) M11/Nines were new-in-the-box for about $125 and dealers couldn't hardly give them away because the tax stamp cost more than the gun. In thirteen years that M11/nine increased in value 440%, or roughly 28% (of the intial $125 price) per year. Of couse, this is assuming I've done my math correctly. (Math is like magnets...who knows how it works...witchcraft?) I'm now seeing M11/Nines with asking prices of $5500, or 1000% increase in the sixteen year period from 1999 to 2015, or 56% (of $550) per year increase. Obviously this isn't a demonstrated direct correlation of cost-to-internet growth but it's anecdotal enough for our purposes right now but it still ties back into supply and demand with fixed supply and increasing demand fueled by a growing NFA awareness/knowledge.

Another angle is the investment angle. No doubt the internet has also helped spread investment advice, and aside from illegal drugs I can't think of any other commodity that has historically offered such a high rate of return over a similar period of time. Guys that bought dewatted machine guns and other NFA devices for relatively few dollars back in the 1950s and 1960s and had the foresight to register them now have collections, that in many cases, are valued in the hundreds of thousands, if not in the millions, of dollars.

Here's an ad from the late 1950s for a Steyr Solothurn S18/100 with a selling price of $189; there's one on Subguns right now with an asking price of $34700. Google images for "Ye Old Hunter" advertisements, or a J. Curtis Earl catalogue to see pre-1986 and pre-internet prices.

**ugafx4** · 06-09-2015, 08:54 AM

Does this mean that those who currently own machine guns are not going to push for new machine gun legislation? I am glad someone brought up this questions, as I have thought about it. Any type of new "amnesty" would hurt their machine guns's values? I know there will never be another amnesty, but it kills me that MGs have to go to a museum or destroyed in a situation without paperwork. Seeing all the torch cut MP44s is just awful.

**Bill in VA** · 06-09-2015, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by ugafx4 View Post

Does this mean that those who currently own machine guns are not going to push for new machine gun legislation? I am glad someone brought up this questions, as I have thought about it. Any type of new "amnesty" would hurt their machine guns's values? I know there will never be another amnesty, but it kills me that MGs have to go to a museum or destroyed in a situation without paperwork. Seeing all the torch cut MP44s is just awful.

There are a lot of folks who'd support another amnesty, or better yet, a repeal of 922(o). A repeal of 922(o) would certainly mean a decrease in machine gun values. Prices would go down to something approaching a "normal" level again. I'm one who'd happily watch the value of my machine guns decrease in exchange for the opportunity to add more to my collection and to add them at a lower price.

On the other hand, there are plenty of other folks who'd wail and gnash their teeth and don sack cloth the moment their machine gun collection drops in value by 50%, 75%, 90% and would definitely not support an amnesty or repeal of 922(o).

Personally, I don't think we'll ever see another machine gun amnesty, let alone a repeal of 922(o). It is what it is. At least we get to keep them at home and to shoot them.

Other countries require them to be badly butchered, to be kept under lock and key at a remote location, to be shot only on specific governmentally-controlled ranges under very limited circumstances, or in some instaces, to own a functioning MG but never allowed to shoot it. (IIRC, New Zealand is like this.)

**tanker** · 06-09-2015, 10:46 AM

Well, if you feel comfortable lying to them for your personal gain, you can do that or be honest an tell them the value and that you would be interested. Maybe they already know an amount and want to see how you would treat them. I have always felt that honesty can never be compromised no matter how bad you want ofr need something.
That is the trouble with the hobby today, too many folks trying to deceivefor a profit. My opinion only. Ron

Originally posted by Ingsoc75 View Post

For my fellow US collectors.

Let's say you meet a veteran's widow or a daughter/son or a widow.

You mention you are into collecting guns and they say "I have something you may be interested in."

They bring out a MP44 or a MP40 or some other machine gun and say that it was their husbands or dads gun that they brought back from WW2.

This machine gun has NFA papers and all and they wants to know who much it's worth because they want to sell it.

What would you do? Tell them that you would happily buy it for say $200 (the price of the NFA stamp) or tell them it's actual worth?

**Ingsoc75** · 06-10-2015, 06:03 AM

Thanks for the input.

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