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By Request; The KU luger!

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    #31
    Kü P.08's

    About November, 1942, the firm of Mauser at Oberndorf shut down their P.08 production line and begain using that equipment and the personnel to produce the P.38 pistol. Parts still on hand were procured by the Luftwaffe and assembled at a Luftwaffe depot into complete pistols. The inspection mark on the left side of the receiver is "ZA" for Zeugamt or Ordnance Office. The Kü is most likely identification of the depot of assembly, which is probably Küstrin (to the east of Berlin).
    Th ordnance office (Zeugamt) was concerned with maintenance, repair and modification of arms. The acceptance offices (Abnahmeämter) were concerned with new production, and were numbered. Some inspected just one large plant while others inspected items made in a specific area by smaller producers.
    The LZA or eagle with ZA inside was used at all Luftwaffe depots, and it indicates major work was done on an item, or in a very few cases that the item was assembled there. It will be found on leather goods, rifles, etc.
    Because of the size of the run of P.08's (several thousand) and that they were newly assembled, the depot identification was applied. This was not standard procedure for repairs or modifications; they usually just are marked with the eagle ZA.
    The labor shortages in Germany would have precluded Mauser diverting resources to assemble these pistols.

    Comment


      #32
      gew98,Matt and Hugh, for what its worth I agree with your explanation of the surplus Mauser parts being procured by the Luftwaffe and being assembled at a Luftwaffe weapons facility and so marked with the eagle LZA or ZA stylized stamp. If some of these do in fact bear 135 Wa marks then the parts were provided after the end of 1941..probably at the end of 08 production in late 42. If none are in fact known with 135 marks then I would say 1941 was the year the parts was turned over to the Luftwaffe. Whe you look at the break down of Sept.39 thru 1942 P.08 distribution provided by Datig for the three services (SS came out of Heer allocations at this timeframe) then you see that the Luftwaffe received fairly liberal quantities of Lugers from Mauser. Apparently these were not enough and additional sources were sought. I can only speculate the the increase in the Luftwaffe ground combat forces that were starting to really gear up during the 42/43 timeframe (also alluded to by gew98) played a role in driving this demand. I don't know anything about the or a Luftwaffe weapons facility a Kustrin. If there was such a facility and it had this type of capacity then it very maybe that Ku is in fact representing this. I have heard Matt's idea of Kummerer (sub-standard) before and it may also be the case in my opinion. I am fairly satisfied that these are very close scenarios. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

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        #33
        Acceptance Procedure

        There were Navy, Army, Luftwaffe and SS acceptance offices, no Armed Forces level office. So it was decided that if an item was basic to one branch (such as rifles and pistols were to the Army), then that branch would have the responsibility for inspection and acceptance of all the items and thereafter they would be distributed to the other branches in accordance with decisions by the OKW (Armed Forces). That is why all military issue P.08's should have Army acceptance marks. In the case of Krieghoff, Krieghoff's primary customer was the Luftwaffe for aircraft cannons and machineguns. In that case, the small production run of Lugers from Simson assets did not warrant a special assignment of an Army team.
        Parts for the Kü's would have been in various stages of production/assembly. Important larger parts were inspected and accepted when completed, before assembly into guns. Some of the parts delivered might have been without normal acceptance marks if they had not been completed.
        The guns were proofed (proof fired) at the earliest stage possible in assembly so that if they failed only minimum labor time was lost. The Germans were not rigorous about first in-first out use of components, particularly after 1942.
        I would assume that Mauser cleaned out every part they had and loaded them up, so there would be a mix of markings. That accounts for the 2 year markings found on the Kü's. Some of these parts may have been slightly out of specification and had been on hand because Mauser had not gone back and corrected them.
        The Luftwaffe needed the sidearms for the expanded paratroops and ground troops. The inter-service rivalry at this time was even higher than earlier. The Army wanted the Luftwaffe to release excess troops to them, while the Luftwaffe wanted to maintain control of these men and form them into ground units. This was a way for the Luftwaffe to get extra pistols, beyond their agreed upon allocation from the OKW, which did not include equipment for these 'excess' troops.

        Comment


          #34
          Great information Hugh. Where did you find this all? I do say, that I have to agree with this latest scenario. It is the one scenario that seems to all fit together and make sense.

          Did the Luftwaffe have a Depot in Kustrin? I know the army had 3 main depots, one at Spandau, one at Konigsburg, and Hannover.
          I agree with Phil here, if the Luftwaffe did indeed have a depot at Kustrin, and they had the capacity to complete this many lugers, then the "Ku" could stand for this depot.

          What about the K98s and my P38 holster that are both marked with this same Luftwaffe zuegampt? The K98s must have been re-worked or repaired by this same depot, and was this holster manufactured at this depot then?

          Matt
          Last edited by Matt Weber; 12-16-2004, 11:54 AM.

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            #35
            1937 mauser s/42 Ku marked luger

            About 6 weeks ago, i was invited to old WW2 vets house in my neighborhood. when i got there, the place was pretty dingy and the light was bad, he pulled out a few items that he wanted to sell and one of them was a luger. upon close inspection in the dim light, it was a 1937 s/42 luger, it appeared to have a mismatched barrel and the take down leaver was odd as the last digits on the gun were #40 and the leaver number was #41???. i fugured it was a parts gun and offered him 500 for it which he gladly accepted. upon getting home with this new gun, i started a closer inspection.. the barrel had a serial number on it punched out with O's, under it was another serial number that did not match the frame serial number, set aside from the 41 on the take down leaver, all the rest of the gun was matching, and to my suprise on the receiver next to the serial number was a beautiful KU stamped on it. gun in overall condition is about 98% all matching with the exception of the barrel and take down leaver, which is still weird because of the 1 off number? even has the correct period FXO mag in it. and has what they call the luftwaffe fat grips on it, deffently a nice addition to the 3 other unusual lugers i have in my collection. if i knew how to load pics i would gladly post one of this gun

            Comment


              #36
              Philly, we sure would like to see some photos!!!

              r
              The probability of being watched is directly proportional to the stupidity of your act.

              Comment


                #37
                lets see if this works?
                1937 mauser S/42 KU marked luger



                http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...type=1&theater

                http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...type=1&theater

                Comment


                  #38
                  another 2 pics

                  http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000193187842

                  http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...type=1&theater

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Interesting pistol, for sure!!
                    Photos pose more questions than answers...
                    Lets see if others chime in.

                    Thanks for the trouble, sir!!

                    r
                    The probability of being watched is directly proportional to the stupidity of your act.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Well, the photos aren't very good, but I definately don't like the "KU" marking on it. Doesn't look correct. The "u" should be lower cased, and have the two dots above it. See previous pages with photos of other examples.
                      Nor have I ever seen or heard of any "Ku" luger that wasn't dated "41".

                      Matt

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                        #41
                        Ku luger

                        Matt the U is lower cased with 2 dots over the uprights on the U, so it makes it the same size of the k in front of it. also remember as said in previous articles, these guns were made out of left over parts, so god only knows what was used for parts to build these guns. this one actually had no toggle hold open when i got it, i had a WW1 erfurt hold open and spring layiing around so i put it into the gun as i do shoot all my guns. I have noticed over the years there are alot of odditys about lugers, i have 1937 s/42, i have seen them with P-08 stamped in the sides of the frame and others without it? my 1937 doesn't have that mark. I have a 1920 commercial 30 cal luger that does not germany stamped anywhere on the gun, and it was a vet bringback from WW2 with holster and paperwork for him bringing it home, he hilled the officer carrying it. Strange things is what makes Lugers so unique and i have also learned if i haven't seen a mark on one i find, i surely start doing some research.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          better picture of KU marking

                          Here isa better picture of the Ku marking on my 1937 mauser S/42 luger

                          http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...type=1&theater

                          Comment


                            #43
                            my lugers

                            here is a quick pic of the lugers in my collection
                            starting from top right down
                            #1 1913 erfurt 9MM made without stock lug, all matching
                            #2 1920 DWM commercial luger 30cal- nt marked germany anywhere on gun, all matching
                            #3 1937 S/42 mauser 9MM with matching FXO mag
                            #4 1937 s/42 mauser 9MM with KU markings

                            http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?s...type=3&theater

                            Comment


                              #44
                              My theory is another. Every german weapon has two basic types of markings: Proof marking (overcharge cartridge) and acceptance marking (personal responsibility, the marking is belonging to the PERSON). The LZA is fireproof marking and Kü is not prefix or suffix, Kü is acceptance marking.
                              See the no other acceptance marking on pistol. No other marking with personal responsibility for the acceptance. LZA marking is imprinted on the place of FIREPROOF. Similar markinggs (LZA & Kü) was found on K98k. See Backbone of Wehrmacht, page 76 &86.
                              My theory I published for first time in 2011.
                              Last edited by Jan Balcar; 04-01-2012, 11:44 PM.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                FYI
                                The P08 stamp on the left side of luger frames did not appear until early 1941.
                                Likewise, FXO magazines were not issued until 1941.

                                Tom

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