P-08 Black Widow?

[noweyk]

Is every byf 42 a black widow?
Have one with all matching numbers with one matching number mag.
Holster without tool.
Straw grips.
Any help on info and approx value will be appreciated.
Thanks to JoeW for answering last post.

[Johnny Peppers]

There never was a "Black Widow" Luger. The late Ralph Shattuck gave himself credit for coining the term. The P.08's with black plastic stocks and magazine bottoms did not sell well, so according to Mr. Shattuck he came up with name Black Widow, and then everyone had to have one.

By straw grips, are you referring to wood grips? If they are wood and the magazine bottom is aluminum you do not have a "Black Widow".

[Alan Smith]

What is it about this "Black Widow" term that keeps it in use (at least amongst some groups of Parabellum pistol enthusiasts)? To me the term is meaningless . . . . it simply has no relevance to the pistol in question.

Using a term like "Artillery" to refer to the LP08 makes sense, given the German military use of the pistol. Same goes for the term "Navy" for the P04.

Anyway . . . just wondering why this "Black Widow" term seems to have caught on and gets perpetuated?

[Johnny Peppers]

To a lesser extent the same thing has happened in Colt 1911 collecting. Ordnance was pressing Colt to up production of the Model 1911 pistol during WWI, and Colt responded by taking shortcuts in the final finish. Mechanically the pistols were the same, but the finish was not as durable, and due to leaving out the last polishing operation, the color of the finish was darker than the earlier pistols. In Charles Clawsons book he referred to this as "black finish", and this in turn morphed into "Black Army". Even though almost half of Model 1911 pistol production had the black finish, the "Black Army" has become highly desirable. New collectors want to know if their no finish or even nickel plated Model 1911 is a "Black Army".

[Chet Sowersby]

Johnny,
You've probably got the handle on this question also but who was responsible for the term "gray ghost" concerning P38s? I can remember seeing that term used back in the early severties.

Chet

[Johnny Peppers]

Chet,

Have no idea on that one. Leon will probably know.

JP

[Wilhelm]

This all relates to loss of the English language. Look at the miss use of the terms "clip" and "magazine".
Wilhelm

[james m]

What is it about this "Black Widow" term that keeps it in use (at least amongst some groups of Parabellum pistol enthusiasts)? To me the term is meaningless . . . . it simply has no relevance to the pistol in question.

Using a term like "Artillery" to refer to the LP08 makes sense, given the German military use of the pistol. Same goes for the term "Navy" for the P04.

Anyway . . . just wondering why this "Black Widow" term seems to have caught on and gets perpetuated?

Alan:
What keeps the term anodized finish as a description for political dagger scabbards in use when we know it is totally wrong?
Why do we allow people to use the term "mint" when describing an articles condition when this term is only appropriate in coin collecting?
Ralph Shattuck made a conscious and decisive marketing decision with "Black Widow" which paid big dividends for him and others even though it has no relationship to reality.
Jim

[Johnny Peppers]

Alan:
What keeps the term anodized finish as a description for political dagger scabbards in use when we know it is totally wrong?
Why do we allow people to use the term "mint" when describing an articles condition when this term is only appropriate in coin collecting?
Ralph Shattuck made a conscious and decisive marketing decision with "Black Widow" which paid big dividends for him and others even though it has no relationship to reality.
Jim

Not a dagger collector, but what was the finish on the early SA and SS scabbards before they were painted?

[MikeP]

Back in the early 60s when you would still see dozens of Lugers for $50-$100 on tablesw at shows, there would be a sprinkling of black BYF 41 r 42 with black grips and black mags.

I was a teenager and used to sit around some of the old timers.
The consensus was that for some reason, these were considered "last ditch" lugers and people did not want them.
Also disdained were unit marked WW 1 pieces.

Navies, Artilleries and other exotics were given 1st consideration
Nazi pistols were down the line.

As stated, most likely Shattuck, coined the phrase and all the lightweight marketing personality types leapt on board with that.
It took quite a while, but nowadays if you don't got a a genuine Black Widow, you're not hip.
They never had numbered mags, either- just the black FXOs.
"There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness."

[JUNGCO]

Mike,
You hit the nail on the head.
Jeff

[james m]

Not a dagger collector, but what was the finish on the early SA and SS scabbards before they were painted?

Johnny:
The finish that was applied,either black of brown ,is a type of "blueing". This finish was then Laquered over and remnants of this are still sometimes found on early scabbards.


Quote:
"As stated, most likely Shattuck, coined the phrase and all the lightweight marketing personality types leapt on board with that.
It took quite a while, but nowadays if you don't got a a genuine Black Widow, you're not hip.
They never had numbered mags, either- just the black FXOs.
"There is a fine line between a hobby and a mental illness."

Ralph Shattuck publicly claimed to have coined the phrase "Black Widow" in an attempt to give an "aura" to these pieces and it exceeded beyond his wildest dreams.
Jim

[Alan Smith]

On the issue of Imperial German regimental markings (as raised by Mike P.), I specifically recall Ralph Shattuck telling me that back in the 1950's-1960's such markings were considered highly undesirable and that he knew of instances of collectors removing the markings to "enhance" the value of P.08's. In fact, I highly suspect that he was personally involved in such marking removal activities.

So . . . next time you see removed/obliterated unit marks on an otherwise nice Luger pistol . . . it might not be that such marking were removed pre-May, 1945 in the course of official German military/police service but, rather, are the work of 1950's-1960's "gun butchers" here in the U.S.A.

[james m]

I don't care to stomp on the dead but Shattuck's shop was located less then 20 minutes from where I live. I never visited it because of his reputation*** but I am told he used to walk around his shop with a bottle of cold blue stating "This is the most valuable item I own".
Jim

***I will occasionally get Lugers that came through Shattuck's for appraisal and oftentimes I can pretty much tell the origin of them before the client tells me where they were acquired.

[MikeP]

I fess up to having a BW BYF 41 rig-two mags, 41 holster and proper tool-all assembled by me.
Suspect most rigs are the same.
I prefer the older pieces and enjoy the unit markngs.

Did not "grey Ghost" refer to late war or French assembled phosphate finishes"
Not the dual toners-all phosphate.