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**Alan Smith** · 10-15-2013, 11:16 AM

Correction: it looks like J.D. Julia is the auctioneer.

**Steve Turner** · 10-15-2013, 03:01 PM

I'll be curious to see how this goes as well.

A real shame they needed import marks.

-Steve

**Alan Smith** · 10-15-2013, 03:59 PM

Interestingly, the import markings could have been avoided if they had left the guns in Europe and sold worldwide via photos (or you could travel to Europe and attend the auction). Each U.S. purchaser could have then made his own import arrangements using a Federal Firearms Licensee ("FFL") of his choosing. So long as only a limited number of guns were involved for each purchaser, his FFL would have been permitted to import the guns as an "occasional import" for the customer, as is allowed by BATFE. The import marking requirements only apply to a licensed importer, not to FFL's, so the transaction would have been completely legal and the guns come into the U.S. with no import markings.

For marketing purposes, I assume it was decided that the guns needed to be physically located in the U.S. for the auction. With this type of bulk import for resale, the "occasional import" exception for FFL's would not apply so the guns had to go through a licensed importer and receive the import markings.

**Steve Turner** · 10-15-2013, 11:12 PM

Originally posted by Alan Smith View Post

Interestingly, the import markings could have been avoided if they had left the guns in Europe and sold worldwide via photos (or you could travel to Europe and attend the auction). Each U.S. purchaser could have then made his own import arrangements using a Federal Firearms Licensee ("FFL") of his choosing. So long as only a limited number of guns were involved for each purchaser, his FFL would have been permitted to import the guns as an "occasional import" for the customer, as is allowed by BATFE. The import marking requirements only apply to a licensed importer, not to FFL's, so the transaction would have been completely legal and the guns come into the U.S. with no import markings.

For marketing purposes, I assume it was decided that the guns needed to be physically located in the U.S. for the auction. With this type of bulk import for resale, the "occasional import" exception for FFL's would not apply so the guns had to go through a licensed importer and receive the import markings.

I think you bring up some interesting points. If the guns were not sold to the U.S. the markings could have been avoided.

Here in Canada some of the pistols could have been imported and sold depending on barrel length - nothing with barrel 105mm or shorter.

The problem is that here in Canada, and I suspect the European countries as well, the pistols just aren't worth as much as in USA.

For example a mint 1943 Colt M1911A1 might bring as much as $4000 in the U.S. while the same pistol if on the Canadian market would bring only maybe $2400, and it's typically harder to find motivated buyers. I use this example because it's what I'm most familiar with, but I suspect Lugers would have the same problem. Even with the import marks, I think the U.S. still has the biggest buyers ready to spend top dollar.

Or maybe I can be proven wrong?

-Steve

**Willi Z.** · 10-16-2013, 12:55 PM

Things are going pretty well. I was doing some live phone bids today and got blown out of the water on everything I was interested in. Seems like most items are bringing more than what one would have expected; certainly more than what they would bring at most shows.

**Alan Smith** · 10-16-2013, 01:03 PM

Very interesting . . . . thanks for the report, Willi.

**Willi Z.** · 10-16-2013, 01:11 PM

Welcome Alan. I wanted a few things from the Dr. Sturgess collection, but even his .22 conversion units and trainers brought more than market value. I can only imagine what some of his extremely rare items brought. I might have better luck this afternoon, but it seems like there is quite a good "on scene" presence.

**james m** · 10-16-2013, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Willi Z. View Post

Welcome Alan. I wanted a few things from the Dr. Sturgess collection, but even his .22 conversion units and trainers brought more than market value. I can only imagine what some of his extremely rare items brought. I might have better luck this afternoon, but it seems like there is quite a good "on scene" presence.

Wait until the buyers premium, shipping, applicable taxes and FFL transfer costs are added on to these items and it's apparent why many of us don't even bother with auctions anymore.
Jim

**Willi Z.** · 10-16-2013, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by james m View Post

Wait until the buyers premium, shipping, applicable taxes and FFL transfer costs are added on to these items and it's apparent why many of us don't even bother with auctions anymore.
Jim

I know Jim. I was bidding on a few more items later on, and the prices just went up and up. I was always running with a mental note of the 15% commission.

Even the import stamps on many of the items didn't seem to dissuade any of the bidders. I think it was about whose collection they were bidding on.

**Alan Smith** · 10-16-2013, 09:37 PM

I guess the auctioneers and other advisors to Mr. Sturgess were "spot on" to borrow the British phrase . . . import marks, taxes, buyers' premiums, etc. be damned . . . . a competitive auction in the U.S. marketplace brought absolute top + prices for the guns.

**james m** · 10-16-2013, 11:17 PM

I hear you Willi but perhaps it was for the best:
And I think we all have to consider the following:
Prices for collectible firearms of interest to us on this forum Lugers,P38s etc. have been spirialing up for years. If for example you bought a nice original WW II Luger** 10-15 years ago for $500 in retrospect you made a good purchase.
Fast forward to today: If you buy the same Luger for $2,000 at an auction paid a 15% buyers premium, a State tax of 8%, shipping and a dealer transfer if necessary you would have around $2500 in it.
If this price spiral comes to a screeching halt as it has for other types of militaria and I believe eventually it will someone's going to get stuck holding the bag or the Luger in this case
This situation reminds me of the old children's game of musical chairs or the way the banks dealt with the toxic home mortgages by shuffling them around before the bubble burst.
Looking at this another way; How long does anyone think it will be before someone can recoup the cost of a Himmler Honor dagger purchased for $15k at the peak of the market or an SS Honor ring for $10k?
I honestly think that at some point in time, and probably not too far in the future, the collectible firearms market will "adjust" just as it has in other collectible areas.
Anyway my rambling thoughts on what I see currently going on!
**The Luger cited here as an example is a hypothetical pistol and a specific example could vary considerably from the prices used for illustrative purposes.
Jim

**schooner.207** · 10-17-2013, 03:04 AM

james d julia auction

hello, i sat at this local auction house and was amazed at the lack of gallery bidders , the internet has really overwhelmed the market place , the premiums , transfers and our state sales tax have just about stopped me from bidding on any guns , i have posted notes in other forums that once you pay these fees you will be owning the gun for the long haul , and if there is a decline in the market value , you may never recover your investment .

**Hoss** · 10-17-2013, 03:31 PM

Gents
I won an item the fees etc aren't too bad very happy with my purchase the person who won the heavy maxim 08 paid too much though imo he/she will struggle to find the missing parts I know through experience they're tough Alan may agree.

Eric

**Alan Smith** · 10-17-2013, 03:57 PM

Thanks for the report, Eric.

BTW: What did the MG08 Maxim go for? It was not part of the Sturgess collection, but was grouped in the same auction session. Yes - it is missing some hard-to-find parts.

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Results of Auction of G. Sturgess' Collection?

Results of Auction of G. Sturgess' Collection?

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