thaca 1911 without serial number

[JuanS]

hello

I was at a gun show in Indiana yesterday as I am looking for a Remington Rand WWII era 1911 pistol.. I saw a mint 1911 Ithaca pistol. The seller stated it was WWII era production. The finish was about 98 %.
He did not know why the serial number was not engraved. I was concerned it may not be legal to own a gun without a serial number?. My guess is that did not pass inspection?. Any other reason a WWII pistol may not have a serial number

regards

Juan

[IMBLITZVT]

So long as the serial number was not "removed" it should be legal. If removed, then its illegal.

Many early guns don't have serial numbers. I have a Winchester 22 from the 1930s with no serial number.

However on a production gun, no serial, if not removed... yeah maybe a botched part or stolen in production or OSS... hard to say without pictures. I am no 1911 expert either.

[JuanS]

thanks

It was not removed. I was not able to take photos. I will if I see him again at the next show

[phild]

I do not know about 1911's WO serial numbers stamped...unless maybe a lunch box gun, but I do know that serial numbers being applied to firearms in the US was not required until the 1960s...maybe even as late as the 68GCA....not sure of the exact year. I know that a lot of US commercial firearms did not have serial numbers in the 50s and early 60s for sure and these are legal to own.

[Johnny Peppers]

There are "lunchbox specials" that were slipped out before they were completely accepted. If the Ithaca had the acceptance marks, FJA and the crossed cannon acceptance mark, the serial number has been removed. No way that the government inspector would accept a pistol without a serial number.

The Gun Control Act of 1968 did make it mandatory for any firearm made after that date to have a serial number as quite a few single shot .22's and such did not have serial numbers. The Federal Firearms Act of 1938 made it illegal to remove or alter a serial number on a firearm; so even though the serial number was not mandatory until 1968, the FFA or 1938 made it a felony to alter a serial number on any firearm that had one.

[james m]

I believe the opinions that this is probably a "Lunchbox Special" are probably accurate. Since the pistol was made well before 1968 IMO it would be legal to own without a serial number.
Jim

[Johnny Peppers]

The pistol would only be legal if it can be proven that it never had a serial number. Since serial numbers were required on the 1911A1 by the military, it becomes the task of the owner to prove that it never had one.

[IMBLITZVT]

The pistol would only be legal if it can be proven that it never had a serial number. Since serial numbers were required on the 1911A1 by the military, it becomes the task of the owner to prove that it never had one.

Don't think so... not the way the law works. You don't prove innocents. They prove guilt.

For example, a serial number would not be required if he machined the frame today for his own use. The ATF suggests you add a serial number but does not require it unless the gun is sold. At the time of sale, if the gun is made after the magic date, then it does need serial number and manufacturers info. However it could be a home build done to match a 1911A1 and it would not need a serial number. Or in this case, it might have never had one. It would be up to the ATF to prove it was removed. Frankly, they aren't going to bother you.

It should be fairly easy to tell if the serial was removed. If welded up, it should have slightly different color finish unless painted. If filed down, you should be able to see a loss of material.

One interesting case related to this was, if I recall correctly, Bonny and Clyde's BAR. Clyde had scratched out the serial number but the gun had been documented and preserved. However when it was transferred recently, this caused an issue and there was even some talk that it would need to be handed over and destroyed. However the ATF assigned the gun a serial number and it was transferred.

[Johnny Peppers]

Here we are talking about a pistol that was required to have a serial number, yet it doesn't have one. If it was removed, it is illegal to possess. It has nothing to do with someone manufacturing their own firearm.

A reading of the Federal Firearms Act of 1938 would help. The parentheses are not mine in the section where it states "and the possession of any such firearm shall be presumptive evidence that such firearm was transported, shipped, or received, as the case may be, by the possessor in violation of this Act."

From the Federal Firearms Act of 1938.


Section 902i forbids the shipping, transporting, or knowingly receiving, in interstate or foreign commerce, of any firearm from which the manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated or altered, "and the possession of any such firearm shall be presumptive evidence that such firearm was transported, shipped, or received, as the case may be, by the possessor in violation of this Act."[30] It is clear that the presumption applies only to the instant subdivision for only under this section is there any ban against such firearm.

If you owned a firearm which was stolen and recovered which had the serial number removed, the ATF may assign it a serial number. In the case of the BAR, it was stolen and recovered, and the ATF assigned it a serial number. If you buy a firearm with a obliterated serial number, the ATF is not going to give you a new serial number.

[IMBLITZVT]

Here we are talking about a pistol that was required to have a serial number, yet it doesn't have one. If it was removed, it is illegal to possess. It has nothing to do with someone manufacturing their own firearm......

Johnny, What I was getting at is that we don't know that the pistol was required to have a serial number. Just because it looks like a 1911A1 with a USGI 1911a1 Slide, does not mean the Frame is a USGI Frame even... So how do we know it was required to have a serial number? There is just about no way to prove it was required to have a serial number. The ATF would have to prove it should have a serial number, not you proving that it did not... thats what I was pointing out.

I was the first to post that if it had the serial removed, it is illegal... Soof course I agree on the rest of your post. I was not suggesting that the ATF was going to assign you a serial number if it was removed. I was just telling about an interesting case slightly related to the topic.

[Johnny Peppers]

All the information I have on it is what the original poster put on the forum. He said it was an Ithaca, and even without a slide the Ithaca has markings that are unique to only the Ithaca. Slides are just slides, but the receiver is the pistol.

But that gets away from whether a serial number is required or not, and on a military pistol it was. So much so that Ordnance even gave the manufacturer the serial number ranges they wanted used. Even the presentation and souvenir pistols made after the contracts ended had serial numbers.

Unless the OP built the pistol, it needs a serial number.

[Gary Cain]

Johnny is absolutely correct here. The possessor would have to prove that it never had the serial number as it is ASSUMED that all 1911's that left the factory would have been so marked.

And yes I am an Expert Witness on firearms and actually know what I'm talking about..

[IMBLITZVT]

It seems to me that the burden of proof always falls on the Government. That they would have to show that this gun was illegally manufactured...etc. That its their job to prove the gun is illegal, not the other way around. That seems to be basic US law, that you are never forced to prove innocents. Just because you assume it should be one way does not mean you are correct. If the frame was produced before the ATF required guns to be serial numbered, I don't see how they could prove it was illegal. There are several ways that could have happened. Without seeing pictures, I don't even know that we can assume this gun even has an Ithaca frame or is even a real gun for that matter. Maybe you guys know the OP better than I but I don't like to assume as much as you guys seem to be.

I don't know but if I was an Expert Witness, I don't think I would be passing judgement without even seeing the gun in question... seems to me a bit haste in coming to a conclusion.

[Johnny Peppers]

ATF doesn't require anything as they are an enforcement division of federal law. A rereading of the previous posts would help as everything in your last post is covered.

[james m]

I for one would like to see some photos of this pistol so we can determine what else is present or missing in addition to the serial number.
Jim