'43 dated ac P.38 without a serial number

[Vilja]

I have the option of purchasing a P.38 with holster and two mags and I was wondering if I should in fact procede with the purchase.

The pistol has NO SERIAL NUMBER.
It is marked P.38 on the left slide with the maker code ac above the date 1943.
It also has the eagle code 359 stamped into the left as well as on the right slide.

The one mag is stamped eagle 359, while the other mag is stamped eagle 135.

The holster is a blacked breakaway pebbled leather marked P-38 on the back and maker CXB 4 and has had a P.38 pistol in it for some time.

The pistol and holster have seen use and it was a Canadian Vet bring back.

I am also trying to get more information about the vet from the current owner.

I would like to know if this pistol is in fact worth picking up and how is it that it is not serial numbered?
Also is it more or less valuable than a similar piece with matching serial numbers.

Your help with this matter will be much appreciated.

Thank you,
Vilja

P.S. I do have some fairly good pictures sent in an email, but I do not know how to post them on this listing.

[leondes]

Hi Vilja,

It is extremely unusual to find a P.38 without a serial number. It is a military pistol and the military required a serial number on each one. There is a police verision of the P.38 but they were serial numbered as well. I have seen very few that should have had a serial number and didn't. Those usually can't be explained and a lot of collectors don't accept them as being original to the period.

We can help you better if we can see pictures as I'm sure you know. Without seeing it, I would be very cautious. There is a known variation of P.38 without a serial number but it normally has a byf44 marked slide. Is there anything stamped on the left side of the frame above the trigger? You mentioned a 359 being stamped on the left side. Is it on the frame above the trigger or was it on the slide?

Regards, Leon

[Vilja]

Hi Vilja,

It is extremely unusual to find a P.38 without a serial number. It is a military pistol and the military required a serial number on each one. There is a police verision of the P.38 but they were serial numbered as well. I have seen very few that should have had a serial number and didn't. Those usually can't be explained and a lot of collectors don't accept them as being original to the period.

We can help you better if we can see pictures as I'm sure you know. Without seeing it, I would be very cautious. There is a known variation of P.38 without a serial number but it normally has a byf44 marked slide. Is there anything stamped on the left side of the frame above the trigger? You mentioned a 359 being stamped on the left side. Is it on the frame above the trigger or was it on the slide?

Regards, Leon

Leon,

On the frame, just above the trigger to the left is ac and just to the right is eagle 359.

I would like for someone to please help post the pics for me as I do not know how to transfer from an email to this listing.

Thanks,

Vilja

[leondes]

Hi Vilja,

If you would like to email me the pictures, I will load them on a page on my web site and post the link here.

The "ac" on the frame was what I was looking for. Buxton calls that an "ac frame late date". There is a lot of conjecture as to why they show up with no serial number and why they are the only ones that have the "ac" on the frame. It's been thought for a while that they were assembled from armorer's replacement parts. There are other theories also. As I mentioned, those normally show up with a byf44 slide that will only have 2 stamps on the right side. I have seen a few with a cyq marked slide but I don't recall ever seeing one with a Walther slide.

Here is a link to my ac frame late date with a byf44 slide.

My email: leon.despain AT verizon.net . You know what to replace the " AT " with.

Regards, Leon

[Vilja]

For those who have been following this thread, pictures have been sent to Leon and they will be posted within 24 hours.

Thank you for your help Leon and to those who have already responded and to those who have yet to respond once they see the pics supplied.

Regards,
Vilja

[leondes]

Vilja,

Here is a link to your pictures: http://lmd-militaria.com/page0330.htm

What I said above still applies. Also, the "ac" on the frame of your example is stamped forward of where I have typically seen it. What is interesting about your example is that it has a Walther slide. I've not seen that before. Also, that variation of slide is not real common. It is what we call a "large ac, small 43" variation. Those slides are stamped differently than the earlier regular "ac43 stack code" slides. From the "large ac, small 43" variation, they went to the straight line ac43s.

Here is a link to my example of the "large ac, small 43": http://lmd-militaria.com/page0073.htm

Also, notice that on the right side of the slide on yours, there are only 2 stamps instead of the typical 3 that you see on regular production P.38s. We think that means that the slide was likely an armorer's replacement. The E/359 to the left nearer the hammer was the stamp that was the result of the initial inspection of the slide when it was simply a separate part. Then, the slide was assembled onto a P.38, proof fired and the firing proof stamp was then applied. There is no final inspection E/359 because the slide didn't leave the factory as part of a completed pistol. At least, that is what most collectors believe at this point although there is no documentation concerning any of that.

Your example has some small condition issues but still a very interesting pistol.

In my earlier post, I forgot to add the link to my "ac frame, late date" example: http://lmd-militaria.com/page530.html

There is research going on in the P.38 collecting community concerning the "ac frame, late date" examples. There are lots of guesses about how they came about but there is no hard evidence to date.

Regards, Leon

[sszza2]

I agree with Leon's comments. But a proper evaluation cannot be done without knowing the details of some other parts and their markings. For example - what if any markings appear on the barrel assembly including locking block? Are there any markings on small parts such as hammer, slide release, etc.? Thus far it appears IMO to be an assembly based on armourers parts.

Scott

[leondes]

Hi Vilja,

Is it okay with you if I post your pictures on the P.38 Forum? I am a moderator at that site and I believe some of the guys over there would enjoy seeing your pistol.

Regards, Leon

[Vilja]

I agree with Leon's comments. But a proper evaluation cannot be done without knowing the details of some other parts and their markings. For example - what if any markings appear on the barrel assembly including locking block? Are there any markings on small parts such as hammer, slide release, etc.? Thus far it appears IMO to be an assembly based on armourers parts.

Scott

Scott,

I have no problem with your assessment and I have asked the current owner to strip the pistol and give a full and detailed report to me on what marks and/or numbers are to be found....if any.....on all of the internal parts and pieces of the weapon.

I am anxious to know as well and I would like to conclude the sale of this P.38 based on his findings.

Regards,
Vilja

[Vilja]

Hi Vilja,

Is it okay with you if I post your pictures on the P.38 Forum? I am a moderator at that site and I believe some of the guys over there would enjoy seeing your pistol.

Regards, Leon

Leon,

Yes, it is OK
I have no problem with your request and I hope to be able to hear of any and all feedback pertaining to the pistol.

Vilja