Early "Deaths Head" marked Luger Holster

[Matt Weber]

Very interesting GWA!

We all have to remember that fakes have been around since the war ended. But also, what I like to call, "enhanced" or "fantasy" pieces. I've always viewed these DH marked holsters as "enhanced" items. I've never seen one that I could swear was 100% legit, including this one. It just doesn't look correct to me. But again, this is just my opinion, I may be wrong here.

Matt

[phild]

Very interesting GWA!

We all have to remember that fakes have been around since the war ended. But also, what I like to call, "enhanced" or "fantasy" pieces. I've always viewed these DH marked holsters as "enhanced" items. I've never seen one that I could swear was 100% legit, including this one. It just doesn't look correct to me. But again, this is just my opinion, I may be wrong here.

Matt

I understand. Fantasy pieces would be defined as something that never existed during the period of use that the item is supposed to be from.....either an enhancement to an original base item or a from the ground up fake.

Fakes could generally be defined as an item being altered or copied to be an item that did exist during the period they represent.

For me there is no question that Spandau Lugers (for example) have been post WWII created and perhaps the guy GWA mentions was the main origin even of those creations. The same is probably true of the TK stamped leather.

I am unconvinced at this point that ALL Sapndau Lugers are post 1918 creations given the photos and write up in Still's book (Imperial Lugers) and other good sources (Walter, Luger Story for example) who have examined the few credable examples of these put forth (not to be confused with many obvious fakes of same).

As for the TK stamped holsters.....I can only say that at least one has been published in a 100% period TK photograph and that I have seen one holster and at least one shovel carrier that were stamped with this style of stamp (size, look and location) that were about as iron clad source wise as I have seen anything be. I alos know that these distict TK style stamps have appeared to my my knowledge on 3 types of items.....all from ONLY the period of the late 30s to perhaps 1940/41 and those are 08 holsters, shovel carriers and MP28 leather mag pouches (very popular with the early SS VT and TV units)......

Everyone has to decide such questions for themselves at the end of the day.

[Johnny Peppers]

One of the more interesting observations made on the Spandau Luger is that no known example has ever been found in Europe, nor does one exist in a European collection. All the Spandau Lugers reside in the U.S.

[Alan Smith]

Amen, Johnny. Further, I suspect that if you could trace each of the "SPANDAU" P.08's back through its chain of ownership, you would see a bunch of overlap way back "in the day".

I seem to recall that the new "Collector Grade" 3-volume set of books on the history of the Parabellum pistol (authored by Geoff Sturgess) has some in-depth treatment of these fakes. In fact, I think the author seems to take a bit of pride in exposing these SPANDAU pistols as the fakes they are, with a very technical analysis showing how these are ERFURT guns with the middle toggle link "doctored" on.

[phild]

Amen, Johnny. Further, I suspect that if you could trace each of the "SPANDAU" P.08's back through its chain of ownership, you would see a bunch of overlap way back "in the day".

I seem to recall that the new "Collector Grade" 3-volume set of books on the history of the Parabellum pistol (authored by Geoff Sturgess) has some in-depth treatment of these fakes. In fact, I think the author seems to take a bit of pride in exposing these SPANDAU pistols as the fakes they are, with a very technical analysis showing how these are ERFURT guns with the middle toggle link "doctored" on.

My knowledge on these really borders on ignorance as I have never handled even one example, however allow me to try to state what I understand as fact about at least one type of Spandau Luger as mentioned in the sources that I cited above.

The Lugers that SOME consider period seem to be dated 1917 (one known) and 1918 (very few known) and all seem to be no letter block below number 150 (or so). All seem to be made from DWM characteristic parts (not Erfurt) and have very distinctive Spandau proofing in a number of distinctive locations...all the same for these guns and only these guns.

I want to add that I do not own the Sturgess set that is mentioned on the above post, does his evaluation of these Spandau Lugers include the examples with the extensive Spandau proofing and no letter block low 3 digit serial ranges?

Based on the quality of the photos in Still's book on these, I would consider it unlikely that the center toggel could have been shaved, planed or ground and not be very apparent. Also the renumbering and the ambitious proofing would be pretty ambitious.....but yes I realize not impossible.

All I am trying to say here is that I do know and fully agree that Spandau Lugers have been faked.....but I am not convinced that all of those reported are fake for the reasons above. Also, most all of those who do believe in these feel that they were assembled at Sapndau from unfinished parts (DWM supplied) and NOT made there from scratch and a 3rd set of German machinery.

[tmca05]

a

Sorry, I do not recall the name of the book that this was in (I have a photo copy of the page only), but you will see that unless the photo is a fake, there is a skull on this SS NCO's P0-8 holster.

[tmca05]

b

A scan from page 183 of Costanzo's book 'World of Lugers, Proof Marks'. Now i know that just because it's in a book, does not make it so, but look at my next posting....I bought this straight from a veteran.

[tmca05]

I bought this straight from veteran Frank Bess of Nashville, TN who was in Company B, 850th Engineer Aviation Battalion. Inside the holster was a 41 BYF luger. As you can see, it is 1933 dated inside the holster on the back panel below the flap seem, right up were the left grip would sit against if the gun was in it.

My holster stamp looks just like Tim's in this posting and "in my opinion" they are both 100% original. I've asked Tim to check his for the` same date, I'll bet it's 1933 as well.

[tmca05]

b

[mrcrtm]

Holster

Thanks for sharing the info and great pics, further proof that they are indeed gunuine. Though my Holster is much more worn the marking is identical. Will dig it out again and check closely for any maker marks or dates.

[Johnny Peppers]

If anyone has the new three volume set of books by Görtz and Sturgess, there is a single page (pg. 969) devoted to the Death's Head marked pistols and holsters.