documentation P38s using P08 holsters, POW sidearm use

[markohno]

I am partial to items with historical insights and a solid provenance. These items document a German army practice of using mismatched pistols and holsters at the end of the war, and also documents the US army practice in certain areas and in certain time periods of having German officer POWs retain their sidearms. The uncle of a very good friend of mine was a T5 in the 991st Ordnance Heavy Maintenance Co (tank) in WWII, which was part of the 73rd Ordnance battalion, US VI corps of the 5th army, and was active in Italy around 1944-45. He brought home a P38 pistol in a P08 holster, and I subsequently acquired it from my friend. His uncle had obtained the holster and pistol from a German POW oberleutenant who had been instructed to retain it in captivity. He had then been assigned with a group of his men to the 991st to provide labor, and also carried the pistol during his time assigned to them. Since my friend’s uncle spoke German, he spoke with the oberlieutenant at length, and that including discussions about his sidearm. The oberlieutenant said he had originally been issued a PO8 parabellum (“Luger”) along with the 1941 dated P08 holster he had. At one point in around late 1944, a supply group came around and collected all the secondary standard pistols from officers in his unit, including his P08, and issued them brand new P38 pistols to replace them (he was issued the Walther made AC44 with low 3 digit serial number ). He said he would have preferred to keep his P08, but had no choice. But there were no holsters available for the new P38 pistols, so he was instructed to continue using his P08 holster, and other officers changing pistols used whatever holsters they already had. At the time he was captured (probably early in 1945), and in the area that he was captured (probably Italy) it was sometimes a US practice to have German POW officers retain their sidearms, and they were made responsible for controlling their troops. I have occasionally heard of this before. A different vet said that German POW officers were also allowed to conduct military trials with a US officer present, and I have heard of that. He also said he had heard that on very rare occasions German firing squads were permitted under supervision, and I guess that might refer to the execution under permission of Bruno Dorfer and Rainer Beck by a German POW squad at Schellingwoode in May 1945. Anyway, when the POWs completed the work they were doing for the 991st and were to be reassigned, the officer gave or traded his pistol to my friend’s uncle, because he had been told he would not need it at the next POW posting. When I obtained the pistol and holster I noticed something wadded up way at the bottom of the holster, which I initially assumed was just to make the P-38 ride higher in the P-08 holster. When I poked it out I was delighted that to find that it was both copies of the war trophy certificate (capture papers) for the pistol, signed July 1945. The P38 still looks factory fresh. I guess that the holster was made by Wilhelm Brand Treibriemfabrik Heidelberg in 1941. Comments and thoughts would be most welcome.

[james m]

I recently had the reverse happen. I acquired a P08 along with a P38 holster right out-of-the-woodwork. No explanation came along with it as the family member it originally belonged to was deceased. The P08 is an S/42 in apparentely unfired condition and showing just a slight amount of holster wear. However; neither magazine was matching.
Jim

[JasonA]

Seems reasonable to me, and probably happened quite often.

Thanks for posting!

J-

[Douglas Jr.]

Although the Germans were being plagued by the shortage of sidearms in 1944 (why collect a functional sidearm to issue another in this situation?) it is a very plausible story. Pistols being found on incorrect holsters are also reported among collectors with some frequency. And, at last, German officers were also permitted on some ocasion to retain their sidearms in order to keep the discipline among the ranks. There is a scene about this at the end of "Band Of Brothers" HBO series.

Nice catch. Is the veteran still alive? If so, write down an affidavit and take his signature. To preserve the story of this rig is the best you can do. If he's not among us anymore, try to collect as much as possible items from his service (docs, medals, etc...). Try to keep everyhting together.

All the best and thaks for sharing!

Douglas.

PS - This P38 has a suffix letter (I read "a") that is part of its serial number. German military P38s were serialed in blocks of 10,000 guns; thus the first block was 1-10000, then 1a-10000a, 1b-10000b and so on.

[Johnny Peppers]

Wonder what they did with all the P.08's with no holster? Makes no sense at a time when weapon procurement was becoming critical.

[JasonA]

The CZ-38 holster is very similar in shape to the P.08/P.38 hard shell holster. But I've not yet found that perfect example to acquire, so I've not tried to see if those were interchangable. My guess is no.

J-

[nomadr]

My guess would be the German officer was handed the holster and P.38 back after he was captured and probably interrogated. For many of these officers these were personal pistols. But who knows if he ever got back the pistol they originally surrendered?


Also, I would think being late in the war was no time to replace a perfectly good pistol for another. The Germans were scrambling for every weapon they could get their hands on.

But then again, I guess anything was possible.

Also I could see a solder picking up a better more reliable pistol (he may have had problems with jamming with his issued original P.08) for the newer and more reliable P.38, and just placing it in his P.08 holster. Why bother to swap holsters. It was war and allot of s**t was going on.

Thanks for the post!

Bob

[markohno]

a couple thoughts

Douglas, you are correct, I should have said low four digit serial number (under 1205a) rather than saying low 3 digit serial number (wasn't paying proper attention).

The logic behind military practices is not always easy to discern. And oral history does always drop the pieces the teller thinks are unimportant. This was a "pay me whatever you feel like deal", so the holster story was unrelated to money. Late in the war I believe there was intense activity creating and fitting out of replacement units, and of converting and combining pre-existing training and non combat units into combat units. It is possible that this might be the context, given no info on the German unit. So if for example, 15 new pistols had been allocated and delivered to fit out a particular replacement unit, but only 9 were really required, then military logic might well be to replace any non standard or secondary standard pistols within the unit with the remaining 6 new pistols allocated for the unit. As opposed to explaining why some items were being returned not issued. I know that large scale unit refits did occurred earlier in the war. For example, according to Long & Broshot, the 4th SS Infantry Ostmark was initially equipped almost entirely with Czech guns, and with British vehicles from Dunkirk, around Feb 1941. They were then completely refitted with German weapons in late 1941 or early 1942. There was always a well established flow path for secondary standard weapons, repaired weapons, used weapons, and captured weapons, with the recipients being the police, non German units, and Volkssturm units. So a used weapon taken in during a refit would never really have been viewed as being wasted so much as viewed as simply being reallocated to a lower status group.

To give a fun and true example of military logic: a neighbor of my grandfather served in the motor pool of US forces in the Pacific islands campaign. He told me when they were getting ready to pull out of the island that he was based on at the end of the war, he were instructed to take all of the new spare parts (starters, carburetors, generators, tires, seats, spark plugs, brake parts, everything) and install all of them into their jeeps and trucks, and discard the used parts. The jeeps and trucks were then immediately carried beyond the reef on a barge and tipped into deep water. Destroying jeeps and trucks was a common practice: the govt wanted returning GIs to buy cars from the auto industry rather than cheap surplus jeeps from the govt. But doesn't it defy logic to go to the trouble of fitting fit out these vehicles with new parts and then destroy them?? On the contrary, it is an excellent example of military logic. Orders had come through to dump the vehicles into the ocean, but had not specified what to do with all the new spare parts. By putting all of the new spare parts onto the vehicles, then all of the spare parts were neatly covered by the existing order to dump the vehicles into the ocean.

[JaimeH]

I don't know if I buy the "returning GI's buying new cars versus surplus jeeps" I thought the price of shipping them back home was cost prohibitive.

[Matt Weber]

Very interesting story. I'm sure it is plausable, but honestly what provenance do you have that ties this pistol to that exact holster? The capture papers only list the pistol, not the holster. (Both of which are very nice btw!)

I don't doubt that Germans stuck pistols into whatever holsters were available though. However, I've said it a million times before, "always buy the item, not the story."
That being said, you have an excellent looking AC44 P38 with capture papers, and a nice looking luger holster.
A very good find!!

As for the story, I've never heard of Germans replacing lugers with P38s in the field before? I too wonder what they did with the lugers that they took back?

Matt

[markohno]

on those jeeps

Jaime,
I have read it a number of other places but:
"many [jeeps] were also dumped to prevent their return to the U.S. where it was feared they would glut the market and take factory jobs away from vets."
(olive drab.com). There was a muckraking Time magazine article 4/1946 "Junk in the Jungle" on the FLC (Foreign Liquidation Commission) disposals, sales, destruction and junking of equipment, but that was everything, not jeeps specifically. There is a film clip floating around of jeeps being pushed off ships. In 1944 there was a real fight between the govt and war contractors and specifically auto producers wanting to abandon war production to prepare for the post war economy (the National Park Service calls this " the war within the war" in their 198 page study "WWII And the American Home Front" ). Preston Tucker claimed Roosevelt met with auto industry heads in 1944 to plan out post war auto production, but this is disputed. But it is fairly certain informal promises were made to keep war contractors producing war goods longer. There are rumors Ford made a deal that it's vehicles sent abroad would not be brought back and sold. And Willys Overland would not have proceeded with the 1946 CJ jeep if it thought many of the wartime jeeps (which accounted for 18% of all US wartime wheeled vehicles produced according to Wikipedia) were returning as surplus.

Production of new cars was essentially banned by the govt from early 1942 through the end of 1944 (Lester Brown "World on the Edge"). In 1944 civilians had to get formal permission from the govt to buy any previously unused car that might be available (per NADA/ Ntl Auto Dealers Assn) Immediately postwar, 2 year new auto waiting lists were common (NADA) Immediately post war, the allocation system for new cars got so bad that the NADA actually published and distributed a pamphlet saying criminals and shysters had gotten involved in new car allocations, but that most (??) NADA member auto dealers were honest. (NADA)

[carbinekid]

I've heard and read about German MP's being retained and used to maintain order immediately following the war. The American GI's being policed by the Germans whom they'd been fighting only weeks before was not overly popular...