Calling the Experts---AGAIN!

[Ronnie Fry]

This holster thing is getting the best of me!! The following photos show one that followed me home this last weekend. From the color and the dates, another WWI. This one has a mfg date of "11" inpressed in the leather, while yet another date, with unit marks, to one side.
I was unable to find anything in Jan Still's book, nor on the internet. So Howz about it WFG, or Matt, or whoever!!! Any help or comments welcome. Too, moderators, I know this is not WWII, but value the experts on this forum.

So here's the front

Ronnie

[Ronnie Fry]

Now the back

[Ronnie Fry]

And Unter der flappen!!!

[GWA]

Ronnie, it was made by Hoffmann and Sons in Kaiserslautern in 1911 and issued to Train Battalion 16 in 1913. Another nice find.

[Ronnie Fry]

Thanks for the info GWA!!! I wonder why the delay from mfg date to "issue" date?? Any ideas on that??

r

BTW, I'd sure be happy to know where you got your info. Is there a book, or a place on the net that I can look??

r

[Matt L]

Yes, but 'Train' is 'Zug' in German... I always thought that 'T.B.' was 'Techniches Bataillon'- at least it is on Erkennungsmarken.

Just my zwei Reichspfennig

Matt

[Bill Grist]

Holster

Ronnie, Very nice holster.. There is a book on WW1 German Markings THE IMPERIAL GERMAN REGIMENTAL MARKINGS by Jeff Noll his address is P.O. Box 7184 ventura, Calif. 93006......On page 108 there is a similar marking on a captured French m 1873 Chassepot Carbine... T.B. Train Batallion..and again on page 61 a defination of T.B. (pre 1914) wfg

[Ronnie Fry]

Ronnie, Very nice holster.. There is a book on WW1 German Markings THE IMPERIAL GERMAN REGIMENTAL MARKINGS by Jeff Noll his address is P.O. Box 7184 ventura, Calif. 93006......On page 108 there is a similar marking on a captured French m 1873 Chassepot Carbine... T.B. Train Batallion..and again on page 61 a defination of T.B. (pre 1914) wfg

AAhhhh Bill, you are on top of things, as usual. Just as I suspected!! You must lurk on this forum, ready to pounce on some unsuspecting flatlander like me!! Now I'm in a quandry. Which Erfurt to put in which holster. Both have Erfurt marked tools. Dad-gumit!!

Thanks a bunch Guys!!! I knew you could do it!!!

r

[GWA]

Yes, but 'Train' is 'Zug' in German... I always thought that 'T.B.' was 'Techniches Bataillon'- at least it is on Erkennungsmarken.

Just my zwei Reichspfennig

Matt

Matt, "Zug" is a choo choo train whereas "Train" is a support formation. One might compare it to a wagon train or supply train in origin of meaning. I would guess that US modern common usage of "train" has its origins in the wagon train, supply train usage. The German word Zug for locomotive probably comes from "drawing or pulling". Interestingly the modern English "train" originates from the french "trainer" which shares the German meaning of Zug; to pull, or draw behind i.e. the train of a wedding gown.

It is interesting to note that, despite their laughable performance over the last hundred and fifty years, the french sired many military words and terms in both German and English. Examples are company, battalion, artillery, infantry, and on and on. The credit for this probably goes to the tremendous accomplishments of the french military during the reign of Louis XIV. Louis' usage and accomplishments were copied and admired by many to include Frderick II of Prussia.

As Billy pointed out, Jeff Noll has done a great service to us all with his "The Imperial German Military Markings" and also Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" is a great aid in deciphering Imperial markings. A copy of the former is currently being offered on Ebay.

[Ronnie Fry]

Matt, "Zug" is a choo choo train whereas "Train" is a support formation. One might compare it to a wagon train or supply train in origin of meaning. I would guess that US modern common usage of "train" has its origins in the wagon train, supply train usage. The German word Zug for locomotive probably comes from "drawing or pulling". Interestingly the modern English "train" originates from the french "trainer" which shares the German meaning of Zug; to pull, or draw behind i.e. the train of a wedding gown.

It is interesting to note that, despite their laughable performance over the last hundred and fifty years, the french sired many military words and terms in both German and English. Examples are company, battalion, artillery, infantry, and on and on. The credit for this probably goes to the tremendous accomplishments of the french military during the reign of Louis XIV. Louis' usage and accomplishments were copied and admired by many to include Frderick II of Prussia.
As Billy pointed out, Jeff Noll has done a great service to us all with his "The Imperial German Military Markings" and also Jan Still's "Imperial Lugers" is a great aid in deciphering Imperial markings. A copy of the former is currently being offered on Ebay.

So, GWA, are you saying that "Train" in this instance really translates better as "transportation"?? That this unit might have been involved in the movement of equipment, not necessarily by "zug"? Maybe by "hay-burners", or trucks??

Ronnie
(Hates hay-burners, Loves two wheelers)

[GWA]

Ronnie, according to Hermann Cron in "Imperial German Army 1914-1918..." the term "Trains" could include medical units and field hospitals, supply trains, Veterinary hospitals, field bakery columns and field butchery sections. Train marked equipment that I have owned or seen is limited to P08's and their holsters, sabres and Pickelhauben. The Pix were all with mounted troop chinscales and the Lugers (many) have been marked to medical units.

As to "hay burners," in the field these units would have all been horse drawn in the early years with lorries replacing horses later on.

Cron also notes that with one year of modern warfare "under their belt" 1915 saw some radical changes to the traditional Train formations.

I apologize if I have stepped on any toes here but I spend entirely too much time hiding from my wife and reading.

[Bill Grist]

Gwa

George You hit it right on the head...See you in Greensboro. WFG

Ronnie, according to Hermann Cron in "Imperial German Army 1914-1918..." the term "Trains" could include medical units and field hospitals, supply trains, Veterinary hospitals, field bakery columns and field butchery sections. Train marked equipment that I have owned or seen is limited to P08's and their holsters, sabres and Pickelhauben. The Pix were all with mounted troop chinscales and the Lugers (many) have been marked to medical units.

As to "hay burners," in the field these units would have all been horse drawn in the early years with lorries replacing horses later on.

Cron also notes that with one year of modern warfare "under their belt" 1915 saw some radical changes to the traditional Train formations.

I apologize if I have stepped on any toes here but I spend entirely too much time hiding from my wife and reading.