KM proofing (Marinewaffenamt) research

[hochadler]

Looking for input to a research project regarding WWII Kriegsmarine acceptance proofs and property stamps. There is a wealth of documented data on Army proofs (Heereswaffenamt), but very little on the organization of the Kriegsmarine proofing/acceptance function (Marinewaffenamt).
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We’ve all seen stampings such as Eagle/MIII/3, Eagle/MIII/8, etc., on various KM procured small arms, optics, and so forth. Can anyone contribute any data on what KM departments were responsible for what products...small arms, ordnance, optics and so on? For example, were there Departments I, II, III, IV, V, etc., each with sections 1 through 9?
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Any information and/or photos would be much appreciated. <O</O

[warbird]

I see there are no replies to this posting. This is unfortunate and quite strange as I have noticed the same lack of information about the firearms of the Kriegsmarine on many other websites.

As a branch of the Wehrmacht, we know they had Naval Arsenals. We also know they purchased firearms from the major manufacturers by the markings noted on these weapons. The "black hole" of information appears when trying to identify the arsenals, distribution, and meaning of the Acceptance Marks associated with the Kriegsmarine.

I guess those of us interested in researching this area of German history will have to keep looking, hoping for a breakthrough. The documentation and knowledge has to be out there somewhere ...

[JoeW]

Have you tried the series "Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine 1939-1945" published back in the 1950s? It has an organization chart of the Marinewaffenamt. In what other locations have you searched for resource information? The Kriegsmarine records in the National Archives Capture German Records might contain information. I am sure that you didn't intend to confine your "research" only to contributions from collector forums.

[hochadler]

KM Proofing - Marinewaffenamt

Joe:
Thank you for your reply and suggestions. In the past I've probed within the Militärarchivs of the Bundesarchiv in Freiburg. The closest I came was to the RM 24 (Naval Weapons Office) which would only admit a professional (paid) researcher among their archives! And I was provided a list of such individuals in the Freiburg area. Right...

Over the years, I've also contacted numerous KM collectors, both here and in Europe, posted on other sites...generally without success.

As you suggested, I will try to locate or access Die Deutsche Kriegsmarine 1939-1945 and also see what I can uncover at the National Archives. Thanks again.
Peter

[phild]

My is response does not pretend to be an answer to your questions, but it is simply what I have observed in my experience.

Generally handguns can be found bearing KM property markings (engraved rather than stamped) up until about 1942 or so consisting of E/M (early) and with O or N property numbers. I may be missing something (like with Radoms??) but I can not recall any stamped E/M markings on handguns...

Some early 1930's era Lugers are "MA"stamped marked (often also with property numbers) and I believe that these are KM arsenal re-works.

k98ks can be found with E/M stamped stocks up until and including 1944 dates for Naval acceptance?? or property designation?? I suspect the former, but don't know.

Some KM daggers can be found with E/M stamps on the riccaso....meaning that they were accepted as KM property for ISSUE and maybe re-sale...I suspect the former here as well but don't know.


As with the other services I suspect that generally KM officers OWNED their sidearms and were not issued KM marked ones....I'm sure that it happened but was not SOP at least in the early years.....so most KM officer carried handguns and daggers wound bear NO KM markings IMO.

As far as handguns go, Jan Still "Axis pistols"(and his 3 volumns on Lugers) book contains some good information on the subect

[hochadler]

The 7.65mm Mauser HSc procured for the KM initially had a large Eagle/M pantographed on the front grip strap above the serial number. It is accepted that these pistols came
from commercial stocks and this pantograph, applied at major naval bases such as Kiel and Wilhelmshaven, were KM property markings.

As the war progressed, KM HSc's were stamped at the rear of the left trigger guard with
an elongated eagle over M/III/8, apparently an inspection/acceptance stamp applied at the Mauser factory. Other KM non-weapon items were stamped with a similar set of letters and numbers such as I listed in my first post.

The M obviously represents Marine, but the numerical designations that follow it are
undocumented and remain a mystery. That's what this search is all about.

[phild]

The 7.65mm Mauser HSc procured for the KM initially had a large Eagle/M pantographed on the front grip strap above the serial number. It is accepted that these pistols came
from commercial stocks and this pantograph, applied at major naval bases such as Kiel and Wilhelmshaven, were KM property markings.

As the war progressed, KM HSc's were stamped at the rear of the left trigger guard with
an elongated eagle over M/III/8, apparently an inspection/acceptance stamp applied at the Mauser factory. Other KM non-weapon items were stamped with a similar set of letters and numbers such as I listed in my first post.

The M obviously represents Marine, but the numerical designations that follow it are
undocumented and remain a mystery. That's what this search is all about.

Your post has jogged my memory regarding the HSc's. It is interesting in that like the LW there seems to have not been a consistency in either how of if firearms used by the KM were accepted or inspected. I realize that part of the differences can be explained by time-frames.