K 98 Question

[djpool]

I posted some pictures of soldiers in winter camo in the uniform forum and one of the members David Carlson sent me the following PM:

"Great pictures!

Isn't it curious that in the photos with the guys lying down and aiming, the man in background is using a WWI-vintage K98?

Do you know how common it was for troops to use the earlier model in WWII? If not, it would be great if you could post those 2 photos over on the weapons forum to get some comments on it . . . Or I could save those pictures and do it.

Thanks for posting the pictures. Theyr'e very interesting.

David"

Here are the 2 pictures David was referring to. Jim
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[djpool]

The other picture.

[Johnnie]

I could be wrong, but it looks like a 98B to me. Quite a few were issued.
Johnnie

[graf]

Its not a 98b (not fitted for a sidemount sling nor the bolt cut out/bent handled bolt)...
Many Gewehr98's were refurb'd in the mid 1930's with tangent sights & used early in the war- some were even converted to full 98k.

I could be wrong, but it looks like a 98B to me. Quite a few were issued.
Johnnie

[Johnnie]

A lot of 98b's didn't have turned down bolts and cutouts. We kicked this around in another thread somewhere. I have seen 98b's in photos with straight bolts. On page 47 of Markhams "Guns of the Reich" is a postcard picture dated 1935 of soldiers on parade w/ straight handled 98B's.
I'm wondering if we are dealing with a designation problem. 98B, by official designation, is basically a G98 with the newer sight and turned down bolt/stock cutout. But with the large number of pictures of modified G98's with newer sight but straight bolt handles and no stock cutouts, are these still technically 98B's? Or just upgraded G98's, with another official designation/or no new designation. Anyone know? I always considered them early 98B's.
This transition frpm 98B to K is of interest to me.
Thanks,
Johnnie

[david w]

The post WW-1 Gew.98, adopted in 1920, included new rear sights based on combat experience that showed the pre-war Lange rear sight to be inadequate. These rifles predate the Kar.98b rifles and although some Kar.98b rifles were reworked Gew.98 most were new manufacture. The Gew.98 with modified rear sight soldiered on throughout the second world war primarily in 2nd. line troop hands. Many were reworked again as Kar.98k when the rifles were sent for rebuild.The Kriegsmarine used a number of Gew.98 rifles in thier original WW-1 configuration.
David

[graf]

No 98b has a straight bolt handle... and all have side mounted slings (like the 98k), someone much more knowledgeable than I once said "A Karabiner 98b is essentially a Kar98k with five extra inches of barrel between the upper and lower barrel bands."
An over simplification granted but essentially correct... John Walter "The German Rifle" pg. 126; Mark Wieringa in May 1993 KCN; Olson's "Mauser Bolt Rifles"; & the list goes on, all give the basics on the 98b.
I specialize on Imperial rifles & have owned several 98b (and numerous Gewehr98M as we call the Gewehr98's with the tangent rear sight update)

For an on-line source that will answer most questions regarding the 98b:

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj20...Kar98b_article

or

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj2003/

A worth while newsletter that Robert Jensen (KCN & Backbone contributor) often writes for- he has one on the SS marked rifles going in the last issue, so join up & help with an article!

A lot of 98b's didn't have turned down bolts and cutouts. We kicked this around in another thread somewhere. I have seen 98b's in photos with straight bolts. On page 47 of Markhams "Guns of the Reich" is a postcard picture dated 1935 of soldiers on parade w/ straight handled 98B's.
I'm wondering if we are dealing with a designation problem. 98B, by official designation, is basically a G98 with the newer sight and turned down bolt/stock cutout. But with the large number of pictures of modified G98's with newer sight but straight bolt handles and no stock cutouts, are these still technically 98B's? Or just upgraded G98's, with another official designation/or no new designation. Anyone know? I always considered them early 98B's.
This transition frpm 98B to K is of interest to me.
Thanks,
Johnnie

[Johnnie]

Thank you for this information and the links. I have never heard of the 98M designation before. Was this an official German designation, or is it something collectors use to differentiate the G98 with newer sight?
I think this designation gap (or missunderstanding) concerning modified rifles between original form G98 and 98B causes a bit of confusion, even among some published authors.
Once again, thank you for the info,
Regards,
Johnnie

No 98b has a straight bolt handle... and all have side mounted slings (like the 98k), someone much more knowledgeable than I once said "A Karabiner 98b is essentially a Kar98k with five extra inches of barrel between the upper and lower barrel bands."
An over simplification granted but essentially correct... John Walter "The German Rifle" pg. 126; Mark Wieringa in May 1993 KCN; Olson's "Mauser Bolt Rifles"; & the list goes on, all give the basics on the 98b.
I specialize on Imperial rifles & have owned several 98b (and numerous Gewehr98M as we call the Gewehr98's with the tangent rear sight update)

For an on-line source that will answer most questions regarding the 98b:

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj20...Kar98b_article

or

http://www.gunboards.com/sites/mrj2003/

A worth while newsletter that Robert Jensen (KCN & Backbone contributor) often writes for- he has one on the SS marked rifles going in the last issue, so join up & help with an article!

[graf]

I believe it is a collector designation, not an official German term- similar to the kar98AZ term which is often used to identify the Kar.98a...
The terms are semi-official, the AZ term was used in the initial trials of the rifle when it replaced the earlier Kar.98 short carbine (which didn't have the stacking hook- further reading : Heinz Lehner, The originals Kar98, 4th edition Gun Collectors digest 1985.) but after acceptance the designation was dropped from the manuals, etc...
A point of contention even today (some books use either designation) but imo the most likely used designation for the Kar.98a during 1907-1918 (and after) was just Karabiner 98- just like the side rail.
The kar.98a designation came about the same time the Kar.98b designation did- post WWI when there was a need to differentiate the various rifles... essentially when they adopted the Kar.98b.

To each there own & although I always use 98a when referring to the rifle I don't get a wedgy when others use the 98AZ designation.

Collectors can use another designation for the Gewehr98M if they like, and most likely some already do, but they are two different rifles (98b v Gew98M) The 98b is a much more elusive rifle & deserve the premium they pull when they come up for sale!

One last point- the primary purpose of the elaboration... I have seen several Gewehr98M described as a Kar.98b on auction sites & gun shows, worse these relatively common Gewehr98M's sport 98b prices.
Before you drop $800+ for a "98b" be sure it is what you are buying- I love books & just like coin collectors say... "buy the book first"

Thank you for this information and the links. I have never heard of the 98M designation before. Was this an official German designation, or is it something collectors use to differentiate the G98 with newer sight?
I think this designation gap (or missunderstanding) concerning modified rifles between original form G98 and 98B causes a bit of confusion, even among some published authors.
Once again, thank you for the info,
Regards,
Johnnie

[Johnnie]

Thank you again for the info. These interwar rifles are a gap in my knowledge base. I'm still wondering though, what designation, if any, did the Germans use to differentiate G98's with the old lange sight from ther ones modified with the new sight. The military mentality being what it is, and the Germans even being more sticklers, they must have had some way of designating the difference. Or did they just issue them both together without regard to the rear sight?
You are right about the 98A designations.
Thanks again for the info,
Johnnie

I believe it is a collector designation, not an official German term- similar to the kar98AZ term which is often used to identify the Kar.98a...
The terms are semi-official, the AZ term was used in the initial trials of the rifle when it replaced the earlier Kar.98 short carbine (which didn't have the stacking hook- further reading : Heinz Lehner, The originals Kar98, 4th edition Gun Collectors digest 1985.) but after acceptance the designation was dropped from the manuals, etc...
A point of contention even today (some books use either designation) but imo the most likely used designation for the Kar.98a during 1907-1918 (and after) was just Karabiner 98- just like the side rail.
The kar.98a designation came about the same time the Kar.98b designation did- post WWI when there was a need to differentiate the various rifles... essentially when they adopted the Kar.98b.

To each there own & although I always use 98a when referring to the rifle I don't get a wedgy when others use the 98AZ designation.

Collectors can use another designation for the Gewehr98M if they like, and most likely some already do, but they are two different rifles (98b v Gew98M) The 98b is a much more elusive rifle & deserve the premium they pull when they come up for sale!

One last point- the primary purpose of the elaboration... I have seen several Gewehr98M described as a Kar.98b on auction sites & gun shows, worse these relatively common Gewehr98M's sport 98b prices.
Before you drop $800+ for a "98b" be sure it is what you are buying- I love books & just like coin collectors say... "buy the book first"

[david w]

Apparently there was no change in the Gew.98 designation post WW-1 / the Germans must have presumed that all service rifles would be modified, wrongly as period photos prove, and there would be no need for model suffix to be added.

[graf]

I agree, I suspect there was no actual German designation change, just the modifications to the rear sight & blue job on the receiver/bolt etc...

Apparently there was no change in the Gew.98 designation post WW-1 / the Germans must have presumed that all service rifles would be modified, wrongly as period photos prove, and there would be no need for model suffix to be added.

[jwh2]

GEW98 Similar to photo

I have just completed restoring a transitional GEW98 that would very probably have a history similar to the one on your photo.

The rifle is a 1907 Spandau Stern Gewehr (star rifle) with the 1920 permission date on the receiver. It has the number over number serial number instead of numbers followed by an alpha character.

The front sight base and insert are numbered with the last two numbers of the serial number and marked with the rework code "Su". The barrel also has the "Su" code near the receiver ring. The rear sight is marked with the serial number, a early waffenamt E/46 and sS for the later ammo.

The top of the barrel, between the front of the receiver ring and the rear sight has four early drooped wing waffenamts, three are E/70 or E/76. It is hard to tell which. And one E/75.

If the waffenamts are E/70 then this indicates work at Bohmische Waffenfabrik A.G. Parg. If they are E/76 the at Waffenwerke Brunn A.G.

So, what all this seems to indicate is this rifle was used in WWI, reworked with the new tangent sight and stamped 1920 during the Weimar period and them reworked again at some point early in WWII. And the condition seems to indicate all this use. I have also seen photographs of a SS non-com inspecting the rifle of one of his troops along side a road and that rifle is a GEW98 with the tangent sight. I don't think it was all that uncommon for the GEW98 to see action with German troops during WWII.

Joe


I have images of the rifle I could post but am new to the forum and don't know the procedure