At this weekend's Vegas show, I saw a genuine factory engraved Nazi period PP, but it had suffered from a cleaning at some point, which had severely degraded the original finish. There was no pitting, but it almost looks as if someone cleaned it at some point. It was a real shame. Anyway, the seller wanted $5000 for it, and I'm wondering what the retail value of an original factory engraved PP with original finish would be worth? I was thinking of buying it and having it restored, but I didn't think it would ever be worth $5000 as a restored piece. At least it WAS a factory piece - I had a lot of people look at it and they all agreed.
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It is what it is as it is now and cannot be made more. I have never known a legit dealer to have collectible firearms restored or refinished for resale. -
I agree with you to a certain point. Luger Carbines and Borchardts are often refinished and offered for sale by reputable dealers and on auctions. They sell. Because of the rarity of two examples and the quality of the work, collectors accept them.
What finish was degraded on the PP? Blue or one of the special Walther options? And be careful of engraved pieces. A recent episode with an engraved PP that had been in a previously reputable dealers possession for 40 years was disclosed on the PP/PPK forum. It was engraved and refinished within the last few years.Comment
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Joe, based upon my conversation with people like Bob Simpson, it was an original factory engraving, I believe one of the rarer of the etches, but I forgot which. The gun was blued at one point, but the finish was very light, almost as if someone had tried to clean it with steel wool at some point in history. I will try to get photos of it, and post them here. It was definitely a nice gun (except for the finish) for someone who couldn't afford a perfect example. By the way, I did read about the engraving "episode" on the other forum.Comment
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Joe,Originally posted by JoeW View Post
IMO - improving an items appearance by careful cleaning and oiling is fine. However, once a dealer is associated with restorations (even of exotics) and resale of same a cloud of suspicion develops. Customers recognize that the dealer has demonstrated the means to effect such work and logically wonders what if anything else in the inventory may have been touched. I am also uncertain if a quality restoration documented and marketed in the best of circumstances offers the dealer a profit potential much beyond the cost paid for the work. Given the long term risk to reputation I can't imagine that selling "as is" and leaving the restoration decision to the purchaser the most prudent handling.
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I agree with you Scott. I really can't say that those exotics were restored by the dealer, only sold by them as such. But the rarities continue to be restored.Comment
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Joe,Originally posted by JoeW View Post
Indeed they do Joe and to varying degrees of quality and purpose. I suppose there are a couple situations where it may be justified as in the case of preservation if chemically damaged or as is done as SOP on dummy MG and SMG assemblies. Past that finish restoration is not for me. As a collector or dealer - I would either be accepting of an engraved PP "as is" or if not seek a better specimen. Perhaps its just me but there is something about "bargain" and original engraved PP collectors that seem incongruous.
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Originally posted by sszza2 View Post
Scott, I dis-agree here. I've known and seen several well known reputable dealers have certain firearms restored for resale. It has become more common these days, mostly due to the rarity of the item.
One that really is common is Krieghoff lugers. Krieghoffs when restored to minty condition, bring huge $$$!!! If they are worn, beat up, or no finish on them, they don't. In recent years, it has just become acceptable to have a "restored" gun.
In this case, as Craig describes. If the gun has no pitting issues, and the factory engraving is still in excellent shape (ie-no wear, or flattening of the engraving), then I would say this would be an excellent canidate for a restoration. Just make sure that you have it done by a top notch proffessional! I have no idea what the value would bring on this piece, since it's already priced way out of my range, but I'm sure it would bring more. Just make sure you advertise it as a "restored" or "refinished" item.
Matt
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Although this question is subjective in nature, I personally agree with Matt. In certain cases, I believe a very exotic gun would benefit from a quality restoration, such as a Krieghof or an engraved specimen like the PP in question. Sort of like a Deusenberg with a cracked windshield. Unfortunately I can't find the guy's card right now, but it may have been too expensive in the first place. I was told by several people not to spend more than $2500 to $3500 for it.Comment
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Provided full disclosure of restoration is made at all points then it is the buyer's choice.Comment
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Sorry Matt but we will have to agree to disagree and restoration is definitely not acceptable in all circles. I have never met a serious collector of pistols or rifles who accepted restorations or sought to collect them. I would not want any part of the restoration of the subject PP or have the baggage or rep associated. Agree that full disclosure would be mandatory. Bottom line is that the ethics of the Militaria world is not even close to the same standard as in the arms world.Originally posted by Matt Weber View PostScott, I dis-agree here. I've known and seen several well known reputable dealers have certain firearms restored for resale. It has become more common these days, mostly due to the rarity of the item.
One that really is common is Krieghoff lugers. Krieghoffs when restored to minty condition, bring huge $$$!!! If they are worn, beat up, or no finish on them, they don't. In recent years, it has just become acceptable to have a "restored" gun.
In this case, as Craig describes. If the gun has no pitting issues, and the factory engraving is still in excellent shape (ie-no wear, or flattening of the engraving), then I would say this would be an excellent canidate for a restoration. Just make sure that you have it done by a top notch proffessional! I have no idea what the value would bring on this piece, since it's already priced way out of my range, but I'm sure it would bring more. Just make sure you advertise it as a "restored" or "refinished" item.
MattComment
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If you think the Arms world is full of ethics, you should have been at the Vegas Antique Arms show this weekend! Or any other gun show, for that matter. The show was outstanding, well promoted, and I will definitely go again for the people and the material, but there were more than enough undisclosed re-blues on dealer and collector tables to outfit a battalion. I do agree with Sszzaa however, that among the purist Gun collector, restoration is taboo. But isn't that part of the definition of purist? Anyway, interesting and useful discussion to say the least. Not what I'd intended, but useful and interesting nevertheless. Still, I'd like to know the value of an unrestored factory engraved PP, to see if it was worth it for me to buy the gun, as I don't have a problem with owning a restored piece, as long as the price was in line with that fact.Comment
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Scott,
I totally understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. I myself, do not seek to buy restorations for my personal collection, although I do have one in my collection, and I am very pleased with it.
What I was really trying to state, is that it has become more common in recent years to restore some of the rarer items. I've seen/known many dealers to do this.
The reason is two folds; One, the number of these "rarer" firearms that survived the war in excellent/minty condition are few and far between, and two- the cost of an original finish "rarer" item is out of the reach of most collectors today.
Matt
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For me, the big problem with restorations of high-end firearms is that unless the gun is always accompanied by very detailed "before" photos of all relevant markings, proofs, etc., you can never be confident that the as-restored gun accurately reflects the original gun.
For instance, I know of several examples of early commercial Parabellum pistols that, when restored, were "enhanced" via the addition of markings and/or the alteration of original markings. In particular, I have seen M1900 "American Eagle" Parabellum that, when restored, had the serial number altered (as well as other subtle "tweaks" made) so that the restored gun falls into the U.S. Test procurement range. Also, I am aware of several prototype Parabellum pistols (in the 10000B range) that, when restored, had a fake "GL" proof added to the rear toggle link - so that post-restoration these look like the prototypes that were made under George Luger's personal supervision. In that case a good friend of mine now owns the "GL" die that was used for this purpose (and he keeps it secured away so that it is "out of circulation"). FYI: The person who used the GL proof during the restorations is now deceased.
Thus, overall, I am really not a fan of restorations unless the gun was in such terrible damaged condition that it was virtually worthless before the rehab process. Just restoring a gun to make it "look good" is, IMO, not something that any legitimate collector would be a part of.
Just my opinion . . . . . (and I hope that none of you got stuck with a fake "GL" proofed prototype Luger).
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Sounds like a particular gentleman from Arizona had his hand in those.Originally posted by Alan Smith View PostFor me, the big problem with restorations of high-end firearms is that unless the gun is always accompanied by very detailed "before" photos of all relevant markings, proofs, etc., you can never be confident that the as-restored gun accurately reflects the original gun.
For instance, I know of several examples of early commercial Parabellum pistols that, when restored, were "enhanced" via the addition of markings and/or the alteration of original markings. In particular, I have seen M1900 "American Eagle" Parabellum that, when restored, had the serial number altered (as well as other subtle "tweaks" made) so that the restored gun falls into the U.S. Test procurement range. Also, I am aware of several prototype Parabellum pistols (in the 10000B range) that, when restored, had a fake "GL" proof added to the rear toggle link - so that post-restoration these look like the prototypes that were made under George Luger's personal supervision. In that case a good friend of mine now owns the "GL" die that was used for this purpose (and he keeps it secured away so that it is "out of circulation"). FYI: The person who used the GL proof during the restorations is now deceased.
Thus, overall, I am really not a fan of restorations unless the gun was in such terrible damaged condition that it was virtually worthless before the rehab process. Just restoring a gun to make it "look good" is, IMO, not something that any legitimate collector would be a part of.
Just my opinion . . . . . (and I hope that none of you got stuck with a fake "GL" proofed prototype Luger).Comment
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