Fired by BAR, Johnson or .30 cal Mg?

[Jean-Loup]

I was fooling around with my metal detector in an 1st Special Service Force combat zone, and finding nothing. Then I suddenly came upon an area where there were over 30 spent .30 cal casings all within a few feet from each other. It seems pretty obvious somebody fired off a few blasts of machine gun fire at that exact place.

All the casings had a caracteristc dent on their base, caused by whatever weapon fired them. I dont remember ever seeing this dent before on other casings I found, though this could be due to the fact I didnt pay attention. Does anybody know what weapon would cause this dent?
Considering the place I found them, my guess would be a BAR or Johnson MG used by the FSSF. Considering I have never seen the dent before, I am suspecting it may be a Johnson MG caracteristic.

Any opinions?

JL

[Jean-Loup]

Same picture with the carateristic dents circled.

[Lon]

Don't discount the possibility of an M1 Garand. 30 rounds would be less than 4 clips.

[Jean-Loup]

Indeed, but then I should see the dent on many of the casings I find in the mountains, which is not the case. There were also no clips present...
Can someone who fires Garands and BAR's regularly chime in?

[Svt40]

My Garand does not do that to brass. The M1 has a round ejector. My M1919A4 also leaves no marks like this since it has no ejector.

That is a very distinctive ejector mark.

***edit***

Just looked at a BAR ejector and it could be what fired them.

[Jean-Loup]

Cool, does anybody have a round fired by a BAR handy to compare with?

I dont suspect anybody has a Johnson in their collection

[Gary Cain]

Hello JL,

I had a Johnson a few years ago! I still have a BAR and I will check it for you.

Cheers
Gary

Cool, does anybody have a round fired by a BAR handy to compare with?

I dont suspect anybody has a Johnson in their collection

[Jean-Loup]

Hi Gary
Why am I not surprised you had a Johnson?
Please keep me informed when you test fire your BAR.
I went back to the plce, and found a few more casings with the dent, and then further off, I found several casings with no dents. Probably someone with a Garand who was firing at the same time.

By the way Gary, could you please tell me what the rifling of the Johnson gun is? How many grooves twisting in which direction? I didnt manage to find it on Wikipedia, etc.

JL

[Jean-Loup]

This thread is a few years old now... But can anyone confirm these are BAR ejector marks? Or confirm they are not Johnson ejector marks?

[Jean-Loup]

This thread is 8 years old now, but in the meantime new images have come up on google, and these casings indeed seem to be a match for the johnson gun bolt! I am not sure if this bolt is from the Johson rifle or the Johnson machine gun, but I suspect the design of both must be similar?
Does anyone have a photo of a bolt that is conformed to be from a johnson MG?

JL

[Biolley]

Good Job Jean-Loup !

See the link http://www.practicallyshooting.com/m...art-1-history/

Philippe

[Jean-Loup]

Salut Philippe!
I have asked the owner of a Johnson MG to send me a nice good quality photo of the bolt, for proper reference.

[Gary Cain]

Hey JL! Holy crap! I had completely forgotten about this thread. Yes, those marks are definitely from a Johnson. The BAR does not make those ejection marks. Great find!

This thread is 8 years old now, but in the meantime new images have come up on google, and these casings indeed seem to be a match for the johnson gun bolt! I am not sure if this bolt is from the Johson rifle or the Johnson machine gun, but I suspect the design of both must be similar?
Does anyone have a photo of a bolt that is conformed to be from a johnson MG?

JL

[Jean-Loup]

A guy who owns a Johnson was kind enaugh to send me some good straight on pictures. Here is one, with one of the recovered casings added on for comparison.
Although the hole for the ejector seems quite a bit wider then the ejector mark on the casings, I believe the casings are a match to the Johnson bolt until proven otherwise; considering that no other weapons in common use by the US army in WWII seem to be known for leaving such ejector marks. Too bad I wanst able to confirm this at the time I wrote my book about southern France, it would have made a great example of ballistics knowleadge being applied to archaeology.

It would be great if some of you guys could add good frontal shots of BAR, Garand and .30 cal MG bolts for reference and comparison.

JL

[beginner]

A guy who owns a Johnson was kind enaugh to send me some good straight on pictures. Here is one, with one of the recovered casings added on for comparison.
Although the hole for the ejector seems quite a bit wider then the ejector mark on the casings, I believe the casings are a match to the Johnson bolt until proven otherwise; considering that no other weapons in common use by the US army in WWII seem to be known for leaving such ejector marks. Too bad I wanst able to confirm this at the time I wrote my book about southern France, it would have made a great example of ballistics knowleadge being applied to archaeology.

It would be great if some of you guys could add good frontal shots of BAR, Garand and .30 cal MG bolts for reference and comparison.

JL

Definately not a Garand. Checked some brass I have and no such marks. Could not take pics but found a pic of a Garand bolt face online: