Chinese Copycat M1 Carbine

[LToms]

A friend of mine wants to trade me a Chinese produced M1 carbine. I had never heard of a Chinese made M1 but after some research I found them listed in War Babies II. They were produce by the Chinese 1949-1954 using tooling that was provided by the US at arsenels that were set up by the Japanese. This M1 has import markings so I assume it came into the country when all the M1 were reimported from Korea. That would make this a M1 that was captured from the Chinese and used by the South Koreans or imported from China. I searched the internet and looked on Gun Brokers and Auction Arms and could not find one listed in current auctions or closed auctions. Could anyone give me an ideal of a value. I am looking for a range since I have not seen the rifle and am not sure of the conditon and want to make a fair offer to him.

Thanks
Phil

[Suber]

I guess my question is WHY I guess would you want to buy a knockoff of the real deal. You can get a mismatched Carbine for shooting , or a correct grade Carbine for a reasonable price if you look around?

[david stone]

I'd say for exactly the same reason I'd like to have a North Korean made SKS, or an East German made one.....rarity and uniqueness. I was once shown a .45 colt, 1911 type that looked like it had been refinished by carefully filing it all over with a smooth bastard file. My initial reaction was "What a horrible thing to do to a pistol" - but this had been made by hand in some North Vietnamese jungle workshop. To some collectors - junk. To others - a rare treasure.
I would think this carbine would be well made, if made in an arsenal with US tools. My early SKS, made in China on Soviet tools, is a well made item. I like the M1 Carbine, and I'd love to see photos of this gun if it ends up in the hands of a member here.

Dave

[Suber]

Good points for certain. To each his own.

[david stone]

Yea...meant to say - I cannot question your taste at all - really like the cargo on the back of your motorcycle - didn't even notice there WAS a motorcycle....

[LToms]

Suber and Dave

Dave you are correct I have a thing for commine guns. If I work a trade I will post pictures.


Thanks,
Phil

[Gene]

I'm looking forward to pics, I'd love to see this rifle

[regular122]

Phil,

I was hitting some old reference books and found some useful info out of the massive Small Arms of the World, 12th Edition, published in 1983. Doesn't help on price but may on where it came from. It could be either Nationalist or Communist Chinese. Here are some excerpts:

Chapter 13 - Republic of China

"The Chinese Nationalist Army usually used the term "Type" rather than "Model" for the nomenclature of weapons. The Chinese character for "Type" can be translated as "SHIH" or "SHIKI" and is the same as that used by the Janpanese. Since a type designation may be followed by a model designation to indicate a modification (as with the old Japanese system, for example, the Type 34 Model 1), Chinese markings on weapons must be carefully examined to secure the proper nomenclature. On many (but not all) Chinese Nationalist weapons, the type designation indicates the date of adoption of the weapon in number of years since the Chinese revolution--1911. Thus the Type 36 submachine gun [a copy of the US M3A1 Grease Gun] was adopted in 1947; the Type 41 light machine gun [a .30-06 chambered copy of the British BREN] was adopted in 1952. The People's Republic of China, however, uses the calendar year designation, ie., 51 for 1951, etc.

"Although for a period of time Nationalist China and the People's Liberation Army used the same types of small arms, this picture has changed considerably since the Korean War. During World War II, the Chinese Nationalists received large quantities of small arms from the United States. After World War II, the Chinese Nationalists started production of some US-type weapons on the mainland of China and also took over Japanese ordnance plants in the Manchurian area....

"....Since the Nationalist Army has been on Taiwan, it has been able to standardize its weapons and simplify its supply problems. The Nationalist Army has used the US 1903 and M1 Rifles. The have manufactured a modification of the Bren in .30-06, and they are currently (1983) producing the US M14 Rifle [Type 57] and M60 Machine Gun [Type 57] on tooling provided by the US."

[My Note - they also list the 7.62x33mm M1 Rifle in the inventory of fielded weapons. This would be the US M1 Carbine. They also began production of a copy of the M16 known as the Type 68 in 1979.]

---


Chapter 14 - People's Republic of China

"....During the Chinese civil war, they captured material from the Chinese Nationalists, including large quantities of US Weapons. When the PRC entered the Koren conflict, they had far more Chinese, Japanese and US equipment in battle than Soviet materiel. By war's end, they were well on the way to standardizing Soviet small arms for their troops."

----


Given the above, Phil, do you think it likely that this carbine would be Nationalist rather than Communist? They seem to be the ones producing US weapons, even while still on the mainland. As to WWII type weapons, they made copies of the Thompson, the M3 & M3A1, the STEN and BREN among others.

The markings should tell if you can find the type number. If by revolution date, then it is ROC. If by date then it is PRC.

You may have already had this info, but I thought it might help. Sounds like a great and rare rifle to have and can't wait to see it. Steve

[LToms]

Steve

Thank you for taking the time to look up the information. I have that book but did not even think of looking in it. Based on your information and what my friend has told me it is a PRC rifle. It has the date 1950 on the receiver and an arsenal marking that looks similal to the Mukden Arsenal. I am looking forward to seeing the rifle also, he is on vaction in AL this week and will not be home till after the new year.

Thanks again,
Phil

[Ronnie Fry]

Photos, Sir, if you can at all, Please photos !!

Among other things, I'm a carbine nut, and would love to see this abberation.

r

[BPC]

It is known that about 44 M1 Carbines were produced before the end of 1949 by Factory 51 (known by few different names, with best known formally being Mukden Arsenal and later being now bankrupted Factory 626 (66 trangle marked)), under an official decision made by the Center Military Committee of the Communist authority. Few more maybe made in 1950, but no record to prove it.

What is the serial number and date manufactured on the one you are interested?

[LToms]

BCP

Thank you for the information. I do not know the serial number but my friend said severl of the parts are matching. He also told me the date on the rifle was 1950. When I get to see the rifle I will post pictures.

Thanks,
Phil