Finnish capture Mosin Nagant

[van59]

rifle

Finnish sold lot of guns to Interarms co. in 1960's. I think that most of guns were refinished after war by finnish Army depot.
IMO this rifle is reblued and it could be made by finns.

I'm not sure how these guns were import marked but import mark could be on barrel, below stock.

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Thanks Grandnagus and Jame for your input. I have some points/questions that I hope you-all will feel are inquisitive and not defensive and I'm combining points from several posts.
- Not sure what a round "globe" sight should look like but mine is a narrow, triangular blade.
- How does one tell a post war Finn stock from a 1941?
- Rebluing = There are no apparent buffing signs as all the lettering, edges, are sharp. In the action without the bolt there are machining marks that one would suspect would be counter-worn if the rifle had been used much or if it had been re-machined including those areas not relevant to function or appearance. In addition some areas within the action are blued and others are bare steel. I'm not stating that this rifle was not reblued but that it doesn't appear to have been prepped by any kind of method that would change the original appearance.
- What is the point of hiding the import marks? Would this have been in violation of import laws at that time for weapons?
- Have you seen any examples of these hidden import markings on these Finnish rifles?
- If I understand your points, can I assume there is a way to differentiate these points regarding war time and post war? If so, how to apply to this rifle?
with mucho regards, van

[juoneen]

Van....this might be of interest to you.http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinImport.htm

[van59]

rifle

Van....this might be of interest to you.http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinImport.htm

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Your reference site is gratefully appreciated. I looked thru the whole thing and my rifle has none of these import marks.
This still leaves open whether the import laws allowed hidden import marks.
Also on how to separate the 1941 Finn arsenal captures reconditions from post war Finn reconditions.

[MauserKar98k]

This is m/1891 rifle and if you have round "globe" front sight it could be m1891/30.

Sights are original to this rifle, made in Russia.

Yes, mine is definitely a M1891/30. I stand corrected on the sight issue however. I didn't know that the Dragoon variant had the blade sight. I was only familiar with the Finnish reworked sights where they converted the "globe" sights to blade version (which mine was never converted from.) One those, there is a piece in the middle instead of just the barrel and the separate sight piece, which is what I mistook this for.

The 3-finger stock splice is the early version. The 7-finger splice is the later version, so this one would be an early conversion.

[van59]

Yes, mine is definitely a M1891/30. I stand corrected on the sight issue however. I didn't know that the Dragoon variant had the blade sight. I was only familiar with the Finnish reworked sights where they converted the "globe" sights to blade version (which mine was never converted from.) One those, there is a piece in the middle instead of just the barrel and the separate sight piece, which is what I mistook this for.

The 3-finger stock splice is the early version. The 7-finger splice is the later version, so this one would be an early conversion.

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It appears that we are learning. Thanks. In this case, I think it is necessary to push for more explicit definitions, clarification of meanings, otherwise we are left to conjecture.
With this in mind, perhaps this is a good time to discuss reblues of these rifles and the other points which narrow down the historical standing of these long-serving guns.
So, does a reblue come with buffing or not in prelim prep or did they just take the metal as found and reblued without any surface prep to remove eg., some pitting?
Did postwar imports allow for importer marks to be hidden? I say this as I'm reluctant to take this gun apart as I don't see it as being easy or without perhaps dinging something up esp without the correct tools.

[phild]

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It appears that we are learning. Thanks. In this case, I think it is necessary to push for more explicit definitions, clarification of meanings, otherwise we are left to conjecture.
With this in mind, perhaps this is a good time to discuss reblues of these rifles and the other points which narrow down the historical standing of these long-serving guns.
So, does a reblue come with buffing or not in prelim prep or did they just take the metal as found and reblued without any surface prep to remove eg., some pitting?
Did postwar imports allow for importer marks to be hidden? I say this as I'm reluctant to take this gun apart as I don't see it as being easy or without perhaps dinging something up esp without the correct tools.

If you could provide the date over the chamber and the barrel length, I think that that I could tell you what the original rifle was. I suspect that it is dated in the later 1920s and may be what is called a pre-adoption 91-30 or Dragoon model 91.

Military arsenal re-bluing, more so by what I have seen from the Finnish weapons tended to be applied over the existing finish, fairly dull or matt and generally weapons would not have been buffed or polished like a typical gunsmith re-blue of years past.

Import stampings generally were not applied to surplus firearms entering the US until the revision of that part of the 1968 ban and occured in the mid-1980s....some suplus firearms that came in earlier were stamped with caliber and country of origin....but not most that I have seen.

The import marks were not hidden, but some are easy to remove and not everything (even after the mid 80s) got stamped....several reasons for that.

The Finns captured these type rifles in the Winter War of 39/40 and again during WWII. Rework operations were continous....A real buff on these may be able to tell or make a good guess based on small deatails on your rifle of if it was pre or post 1945...I'm not that buff.

I do know that the Finns did not re-work these or anything else for the purpose of selling to surplus dealers....but rather to upgrade these older weapons for contingent issue to generally reserve forces....later they decided to sell some of them.

Bottom line is your rifle appears to be 100% original Finnish Military. I would say the same thing if it was import stamped but would deduct 5 bucks from the price.....that is all an import stamp means to me on a firearm such as this.

That remark is in no way a slam againist your rifle as it is very nice, very historic, very original (to the Finnish Military) and very collectable, but in context to when and how it came into the US the import mark is just like every other mark that will be found on a military weapon.....that is ....Gov. mandated!

[van59]

rifle

Great addition to the knowledge bank by Phild and I thank you.
The barrel is just over 28'' from receiver to tip. The date is 1929.
As for rebluing, what you say makes sense esp. that the Finns were interested in function for their usage vs for selling. This is why the inside of the action there exists both machined bare steel and blued areas which makes me wonder whether this was reblued. On the other hand, the gun is 1929 Russian and to expect it not to have been used might be statistically unreliable conclusion.
The gun doesn't look that used except for the Remington bolt which was re-numbered apparently by the Finns to match the barrel.
The info provided by all the posters has been interesting to me at least and I've learned a little more regarding the Finns and the war along with a better regard for a Russian rifle.

[phild]

Your rifle is without a doubt a pre-adoption 91-30, or essentially a Dragoon model 91 that has not had the sights upgraded to the true 91-30 pattern...which makes it sort of scarce in the scheme of MN91s.

The variations to be found in Finnish modifications is pretty staggering IMO and I think that the factors determining the type of re-work and modifications were 1. what they started with in terms of model and condition 2. when the rework was done 3. where the re-work was done and 4. what echelon of service was the completed weapon intended to serve.

[Jame]

Yes it si dragoon model!
This is little bit rarer in Finland than standard M91.

And van59 I personally try avoid any import stamps!! Because they are not belong to the gun originally! And my opinion is that any kind import stamps will lower gun value.
So If I were you I would be very glad that there is no import markings.
I also would be very happy if I own this rifle!!
As I say Drogoon rifle it's not so common here in Finland.

I have only one Dragoon and one Cossack M1891 model rifles

[grandnagus]

=============
Thanks Grandnagus and Jame for your input. I have some points/questions that I hope you-all will feel are inquisitive and not defensive and I'm combining points from several posts.
- Not sure what a round "globe" sight should look like but mine is a narrow, triangular blade.
- How does one tell a post war Finn stock from a 1941?
- Rebluing = There are no apparent buffing signs as all the lettering, edges, are sharp. In the action without the bolt there are machining marks that one would suspect would be counter-worn if the rifle had been used much or if it had been re-machined including those areas not relevant to function or appearance. In addition some areas within the action are blued and others are bare steel. I'm not stating that this rifle was not reblued but that it doesn't appear to have been prepped by any kind of method that would change the original appearance.
- What is the point of hiding the import marks? Would this have been in violation of import laws at that time for weapons?
- Have you seen any examples of these hidden import markings on these Finnish rifles?
- If I understand your points, can I assume there is a way to differentiate these points regarding war time and post war? If so, how to apply to this rifle?
with mucho regards, van

The blade front sight is what a dragoon model should have originally.

A wartime Finn stock should have rounded finger joints on the stock. A post war stock has squard finger joints connecting both parts of the stock.

Import marks started after the 1960's. I would say around 1984 or so. So yours and others older imports will not have import marks.

[van59]

The blade front sight is what a dragoon model should have originally.

A wartime Finn stock should have rounded finger joints on the stock. A post war stock has squard finger joints connecting both parts of the stock.

Import marks started after the 1960's. I would say around 1984 or so. So yours and others older imports will not have import marks.

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Mine has a total of 3 rounded fingers. It also has a Tula hammer on the rear sight base.
Thanks for the clarification.