6,5mm Patronen (h) fur MG?

[Alan Smith]

Here is a little ammo box that I picked up at a small local show this weekend, buried amongst a pile of old gun parts, ammo, etc. that recently came from the shop of a long out-of-business gunsmith.

I'm not sure, but my guess is that this 1943 dated box was German production ammo for captured Dutch Madsen 6.5mm MG's. I have never seen a box like this before so I would appreciate any input.

Assuming I am correct on the Madsen MG connection, what sort of German troops would have been using captured Madsen MG's in 1943?

[Alan Smith]

Unfortunately, the box has post-war writing on its ouside, from being used as a storage container for some sort of rifle clips.

[Alan Smith]

Here is the box with the rifle clips that came in it.

Are these clips for the 6.5mm Dutch military rifles?

[Frank De Smedt]

MG100(h)

Hi Allan,

The box you have is from steel cased 6.5x54R ammo witch was used for the Dutch version of the Lewis machinegun during WW2.

The German name of the Dutch lewis is MG100(h)

more info (in Dutch) on
http://www.grebbeberg.nl/index.php?p...eur-lewis-m-20

Regards,

FRANK

[Alan Smith]

Frank,

Thanks for the information.

Do you have any idea what German troops may have used the 6.5mm Dutch "Lewis" type MG's? Particularly at the late war date of 1943, I would assume such Lewis guns were not in front line German army service. Thus, maybe the Germans employed these captured Dutch Lewis guns in secondary roles, possibly among troops located in the Netherlands?

This is the first box of German military production 6.5mm ammo I have ever seen. Here in the U.S. we typically only see WWII German issue 9mm, 8mm, 8mm Kurtz, and the Austrian rifle ammo - I can't recall the caliber designation - that was imported here by the ton in the 1980's. I would guess that German use of the Dutch "Lewis" guns was relatively minor compared to the other types of firearms used by the Germans, so I would expect the German 6.5mm ammo to be relatively uncommon.

[STG44]

The ammo you are thinking of is probably the 8 x 56R.
I picked up quite a few full boxes of the 6.5mm ammo like yours last year at Knob Creek.

[Frank De Smedt]

Allan,

My opinion these guns were mainly used as LMG by garisson and second -line troops .

It is possible that they were also used as first line weapons (SMG)in bunkers an other fixed positions.

I based "my opinion" on pictures I saw from Hotchkis SMG's used by Waffen SS troops on the Leningrad front.
The Hotchkis was also an older type of weapon at that time.

If the germans still produced this type of ammo in 1943(probably at the Dutch state factory), they must have had a considerable amount of 'm.

Regards,

FRANK

[Alan Smith]

Frank: Thanks for your follow up information.

STG44: I appreciate your reply as well. If you decide to part with a full box of the 6.5mm ammo (or know where I can get a box), I would appreciate you letting me know.

Thanks,

Alan

[Craig W.C. Brown]

Quite likely issued to Police of one kind or another operating in the area with Luftwaffe ground security units being a second likelihood.

A first-class reference on this general topic is: Wilhelm Micke, Beutepatronen und Patronen für Beutewaffen in der Deutschen Wehrmacht 1939 bis 1945, 1999.

[Bill Grist]

Dutch ammo

Here are a couple of boxes in my German/Occupation Small Arms Ammo collection....BILL

[Bill Grist]

Dutch AMMO

[Alan Smith]

Nice ammo, Bill - thanks for posting.

BTW: Have you ever looked up the maker's codes on your boxes, so as to determine where this ammo was maufactured?

[racefiets]

The rounds were made by am. Gustloff-Werke , Otto Eberhardt-Patronenfabrik, Hirtenberg Niederdonau in Austria.

[Alan Smith]

I wonder if this is this the same "Gustolff-Werke" that was owned/controlled by the NSDAP and held, among other assets, the former Simson & Cie, Suhl? My understanding is that this entity was a holding company for assets that were "nationalized" by the Germans and included not only the formerly Jewish-owned Simson facility but multiple other facilities as well. If I recall correctly, the "Gustolff-Werke" entity had a production facility at one of the KZ lagers, where G/K-43 rifles were assembled as well as a similar operation producing 98k's using forced labor.

To me, it seems that items originating from the Gustolff-Werke's various facilities have a sort of colored past, being produced using seized assets, forced labor, etc.