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**leondes** · 04-13-2009, 07:30 PM

Hi Shooter13,

Just an FYI, the serial numbers on the frame and slide are not in the original locations. It appears the gun has been heavily buffed, removing the old markings and then remarked.

The E/359 is the waffenamt for Walther and only appeared on cyqs on very low serial numbered guns made in 1942. Your's, being an "x" block (assuming that is the original serial number) would have been made in late 1944.

Here is a link to one of my cyqs so you can see the location of the original numbering.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page153.html

Spreewerk magazines were never serial numbered when originally made so those numbers were likely applied post-war.

I'm not being critical, just thought you should know, in case you didn't already.

Regards, Leon

**SHOOTER13** · 04-14-2009, 05:12 PM

Source of information...

Hi Leon...

The serial number is 246 ( the x value is the last digit of the serial # I was excluding in first post...ie not an x block )...and my source is a book that I have, in particular:

Standard Catalog of Military Firearms
The Collectors Price and Reference Guide
3rd edition by Ned Schwing
published by Gun Digest Books
ISBN 0-87349-902-6
mid right side of page# 126 (under Spreewerke Military)

quote...

"cyq" (1st variation)
The first 500 of these guns have the eagle over 359 on some small parts and command a premium. Value depends on markings and an expert should be consulted for values.

unquote...

top of page# 127 (same book ) has a picture of an example slide with markings in identical positions to my firearm as shown in the picture.

I have also read ( internet ) that the rectangular firing pins were found only in the early low serial number ranges. Both magazines are numbered with 246 on the bottom front and the eagle over 359 appears on both of the magazines spine. The serial number 246 appears again on the locking block under the barrel. An eagle over a circled swastika and the eagle over 359 appear on the slide above the grips on the other side of the slide ( not shown in the pic ). (Also not shown in the pic ) is the last two digits of the serial number (46) on the widest part of the trigger guard.

This is where I got my info...could you please quote your source so that I can verify your information. Thanks !!

PS: Found this document

**leondes** · 04-14-2009, 06:32 PM

Hi Shooter13,

I have the same Standard Catalog that you quote and if you look carefully at the position of the numbers, they are not in the same location. On your gun, the slide serial number is below the "cyq" stamp, on the Standard Catatlog (SC) gun it is right above the slide lock lever, further to the rear. The position of the frame serial number on your gun is immediately below the slide in a milled recessed area. On the SC gun, the number is on the rail that is in line with the trigger axle pin.

Your gun has a late variation frame with the reinforement hump where the trigger axle pin goes through the frame. The one in the SC is an early frame without that hump. That hump started being used in mid 1943.

Rectangular firing pins were only used on very early Walther zero series and very early HP P.38s. Nothing made after mid 1940 will have a rectangular firing pin if it is an original gun. No cyq was produced with a rectangular firing pin.

Walther is the only maker to serialize magazines and they stopped that in early 1942.

Very early cyqs (serial number below 500 and with an early frame) will typically have some Walther (E/359) inspected small parts. There might be a very occasional one after that but it is not the norm and certainly, by about serial number 1000, it would be exceedingly rare to find one.

Spreewerk's waffenamt number was "88" so that is typically what you will find in certain places on the gun. E/359 marked mags were made at Walther and wouldn't have been issued in a cyq, in fact, Walther had stopped serial numbering mags by the time cyqs were starting to be made.

Source? I have collected and studied P.38s for 20 years and am a moderator on the P.38 Forum. I certainly don't know it all and haven't seen it all but some things should fall into place when you see an original gun and I don't really see that on your's. If you would like to provide a good picture of the head of the firing pin, I would happy to address that.

Here is a link to my early cyq. Look carefully at the location of the stampings.

http://lmd-militaria.com/page0151.html

Regards, Leon

**SHOOTER13** · 04-14-2009, 07:25 PM

Correct Markings

Hi Leon...

BTW, I wasn't questioning your expertise or credentials when I asked your source...I just wanted to find more sources of information to ascertain exactly what I have...

And you're correct...the location of the serial number pictured on page #127 and location of the serial number on the slide of my gun don't match.

So, I take it that someone put together this gun from parts from all different time frames...added/stamped the 246 serial number in the wrong spot on the slide to match the rest of the 246's everywhere else, added an early retangular firing pin...got 2 Walther mags ( e/359 on the spine ) and numbered them on the bottom to match the gun's 246 serial number...and then added the e/359 to the right side of the slide to match all the other small parts marked e/359 (like the take down lever). ( No sarcasm meant ). Seems like alot of trouble...

And BTW...forgot to mention that the the cyq looks more like cvq on closer inspection...which I've read may have happened because the fragile bottom of the 'y' broke off the die after many stampings. And where you said the serial number should be on the slide... there is an 'S'...and I don't mean the S for safe which is under the safety lever where it should be...as is the F for fire.

Also...check my 2nd post ( time stamped 6:12pm) to see the document I included from an internet source.

Thanks for your help Leon...

**leondes** · 04-14-2009, 07:41 PM

Hi Shooter13,

It is very possible that your gun went through a rework program after the war and they used mix and match parts to come up with a complete, working pistol. In most cases, they went to a lot of trouble when marking the guns during the rework process.

For a source of info, try "The P.38 Pistol" Volume 2 by Warren Buxton. Although the info is hard to find because of the book's organization, there is a wealth on knowledge there. Keep in mind that the book was published in 1983 and some things have changed since then because of a lot more pistols being observed.

I am very familiar with the document you show. It is on the P.38 Forum and was put together by Orv Reichert, another moderator on the P.38 Forum. So happens, I spoke to Orv just yesterday. All the moderators on the P.38 Forum stay in touch with any new info that comes out.

I would like to see a good picture of the E/359 on the right side of the slide.

It's true that the tail of the "y" broke off. There was a small block of guns earlier in production that shows that problem but that was corrected quickly. By about serial # 2500z, the cvq starts showing up and quickly becomes the norm.

There is a new book out on Spreewerk P.38s that was written by Jan Balcar (researcher in Czechoslovakia) and Ron Clarin (another moderator on the P.38 Forum). It is a soft cover and very reasonably priced. If you want to learn a lot about Spreewerk P.38s, I would suggest you acquire that book from Ron. Post back if you are interested and I will post contact info. I think that info is already in a thread here.

Regards, Leon

**SHOOTER13** · 04-14-2009, 08:03 PM

Thanks again

Yes Leon...

Please include me if you have any more sources, books, websites, and a link to the p38 forum you've mentioned...anything on Spreewerke CYQ's

Thanks again for your help my friend...take care...signing off for the night!!

**rclarin** · 04-14-2009, 08:42 PM

Hello Shooter13,

I can assure you that the information that Leon has provided you is correct. His assessment of your pistol is 100% accurate. I am also one of the moderators of the P.38forum which can be found at:

http://www.p38forum.com/

And the co-author of the following book:

http://forums.p38forum.com/forums/vi...asc&highlight=

I will be happy to answer any other questions you may have on your pistol.

Regards,
Ron Clarin

**Matt Weber** · 04-15-2009, 09:37 AM

Leon, and Ron are correct. Every thing Leon stated is totally correct about this P38. This P38 is what we call a "force matched" gun.

Shooter, actually, this isn't that difficult for someone to do. Fakers do this all the time with lugers, K98s, and yes, as we see here, P38s.
It doesn't take a whole lot of work to do, and it probably only cost the faker $100 or less to do.
Why would they do this? Simple; to try and turn a $250 gun into a $2000 gun.

I'm terribly sorry if you though you had a rare gem here. I just hope you didn't pay the price for it?

It's only real value is as a shooter. Unless it truely does have the rectangular firing pin in it? Then it may have more value as a parts gun? Please post more photos of the slide markings, the firing pin, the magazine bases, and the inside of the grips.

Matt

**SHOOTER13** · 04-15-2009, 12:40 PM

Thanks Matt & Ron...and Leon

Thanks guys...but as I said in my posts to Leon...I believe his evaluation of my firearms history...as I know he has no hidden agenda.

As far as the cost...the Bristol Twp Fireman who sold me most of his collection bought this gun through the mail in the 60's...and sold it to me for $250...along with an FN Hi-Power for another $250...for a grand total of $500.

I do believe I made out on that deal !! (

)

I also acquired two Ruger pistols ( a P89 9mm and a Security Six .357mag ) at a latter date that I sold to purchase a Ruger Bisley Vaquero SA.

My collection at last count totals 30 Pistols, Revolvers, Rifles, and Shotguns. I always try to research my acquisitions history ( if any ) for my own pleasure and knowledge...not because I looking to turn a profit. My wife, a retired SgtMaj USA CID also enjoys shooting...as does my 18 year old daughter...so I know my collection will be enjoyed for years to come.

I do believe I will look into joining the P38 Forum...it has been a pleasure talking to you guys...take care !!

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