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**Jason** · 04-13-2009, 05:18 AM

Originally posted by Death-Ace View Post

Hey guys,

As much as I hate to admit, I have no idea if this is authentic or not:

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIte...Item=126938641

Opinions? If this turns out to be a farse, ahh, I'll just move on to the next best thing that I see around the corner (always a good time to invest in SS items ^^)

HI Death,
Some points to make.This is not an "investment piece" as most collectors would define.
-Russian capture,Russian" trophy" which has been re-arsenaled usually mismatched and refinished
-Import marked,lowers value(most Rc's are)
-Single rune rifle was a" forced labor" concentration camp rebuild done under SS supervision.Some people dont consider this an SS item
Hope this helps,
Jason

**Death-Ace** · 04-13-2009, 11:27 AM

Ah, thanks for the info! I've always wondered why they consider these to be SS-used rifles, considering the single rune on this. Anyhow, I'm wondering if this is legit in the first place, and would be a good buy? I love Russian captures and imports more than matching guns, seeing how we can shoot with them without the fear of ruining a fully-matching piece (and that they have more history behind them then most matching pieces.)

**Basile** · 04-14-2009, 01:31 AM

The bnz single rune guns are considered to be SS contract guns by every , and I mean every, knowledgeable collector. The key thing to look for is the lack of a suffix letter at the end of the serial number [ ie:1234, NOT 1234a ] there should not be a final acceptance stamp on the top of the receiver either. Ask for better photos and photos of the serial number on the barreled receiver. For someone to claim these are not SS contract guns is frankly foolish. Remember, however, the gun is mismatched and loses much of it's value, but if it is indeed a legitimate single rune gun, it is most assured a SS 98k. These guns are not rebuilds by the way. Guns marked SSAZ4 are often reworked Gew 98 receivers / guns. Single rune guns marked bnz 43 and bnz 4 on the receiver were new made guns. Stay away from ALL Mitchell Mausers they are crap no matter how they are marked. There is a very good photo spread ,in the 98k firearms section of the following forum that might be of help to you, of a matching single rune bnz 43. http://www.ww2weaponsforum.com/

**Jason** · 04-14-2009, 05:15 AM

Originally posted by Basile View Post

The bnz single rune guns are considered to be SS contract guns by every , and I mean every, knowledgeable collector. The key thing to look for is the lack of a suffix letter at the end of the serial number [ ie:1234, NOT 1234a ] there should not be a final acceptance stamp on the top of the receiver either. Ask for better photos and photos of the serial number on the barreled receiver. For someone to claim these are not SS contract guns is frankly foolish. Remember, however, the gun is mismatched and loses much of it's value, but if it is indeed a legitimate single rune gun, it is most assured a SS 98k. These guns are not rebuilds by the way. Guns marked SSAZ4 are often reworked Gew 98 receivers / guns. Single rune guns marked bnz 43 and bnz 4 on the receiver were new made guns. Stay away from ALL Mitchell Mausers they are crap no matter how they are marked. There is a very good photo spread ,in the 98k firearms section of the following forum that might be of help to you, of a matching single rune bnz 43. http://www.ww2weaponsforum.com/

We have discussed the topic of single rune guns before.Our moderator has an opinion different than yours
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ingle+rune+k98
Some other members may have opinions as well

**Mike Steves** · 04-14-2009, 06:55 AM

Jason, I think you are confused a bit. There are quite a few variations of "SS" guns as they are being called here:

Gew98 reworks
SSZZA4 reworks
SSZZA4 new production
Single Rune new production
SS Contract new production

While Single Rune guns are generally known as "SS" guns, I have to admit there is no evidence to support the theory that all Single Rune guns went to the SS. It seems logical that any gun reworked/built under the control of the SS went to the SS, as they were very persistent in wanting their own supply system of 98k's. You have to remember though, Waffen SS units operated under the Wehrmacht command, and Waffen SS troops would have been issued firearms through the normal channels as well.

To me, the gun on auction looks like an SS contract rifle with the rune added. Most folks don't realize how many SS contract guns were altered, either overseas or stateside, by adding the rune. It's a hornets nest for me to mention that I'm sure- I wouldn't buy the rifle linked above, but that's me.

Here's a photo of a bnz4 single rune for comparison:

**Matt Weber** · 04-14-2009, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by Mike Steves View Post

Jason, I think you are confused a bit. There are quite a few variations of "SS" guns as they are being called here:

Gew98 reworks
SSZZA4 reworks
SSZZA4 new production
Single Rune new production
SS Contract new production

While Single Rune guns are generally known as "SS" guns, I have to admit there is no evidence to support the theory that all Single Rune guns went to the SS. It seems logical that any gun reworked/built under the control of the SS went to the SS, as they were very persistent in wanting their own supply system of 98k's. You have to remember though, Waffen SS units operated under the Wehrmacht command, and Waffen SS troops would have been issued firearms through the normal channels as well.

To me, the gun on auction looks like an SS contract rifle with the rune added. Most folks don't realize how many SS contract guns were altered, either overseas or stateside, by adding the rune. It's a hornets nest for me to mention that I'm sure- I wouldn't buy the rifle linked above, but that's me.

Here's a photo of a bnz4 single rune for comparison:

Mike,

Very well said! I agree with you 100%. Although you did leave out another variation. that is the K98 new production.!

That comes between the G98 reworks, and the "sszza4" marked rifles.
I don't like the rifle either. One other note to mention on the rifle in the auction. It has the larger "bnz" lettering. I've been trying to research this for a while. Does anyone have any information on the larger "bnz" lettering on some of the Steyr rifles?

Matt

**Basile** · 04-14-2009, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by Jason View Post

We have discussed the topic of single rune guns before.Our moderator has an opinion different than yours
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ingle+rune+k98
Some other members may have opinions as well

It would appear your moderator agrees with Mr Steves, which makes ALL my comments valid. Next time check your facts.

**Jason** · 04-14-2009, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Basile View Post

It would appear your moderator agrees with Mr Steves, which makes ALL my comments valid. Next time check your facts.

Bassile,
I never claimed an opinion.Rather I pointed out that not all collectors agree that single rune guns were issued to the SS.I was wrong to say that all the guns are reworks,but even the authorities on the subject admit there is no documentation to support the definition of the single rune.Don't loose sight that this is a learning environment where we try to help each other.As Mike pointed out I might be a little confused,but I think we are all better off for it.If we were all experts there would be no point to this forum.I have learned from this thread as I am sure have others.......I think that is great

**Suber** · 04-14-2009, 09:26 PM

It appears to me to be a fabrication in terms of the rune itself. Is it common for the BNZ markings to be so deep into the metal? They look very deep, and crisp for such a rifle.

**Basile** · 04-14-2009, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by Jason View Post

Bassile,
I never claimed an opinion.Rather I pointed out that not all collectors agree that single rune guns were issued to the SS.I was wrong to say that all the guns are reworks,but even the authorities on the subject admit there is no documentation to support the definition of the single rune.Don't loose sight that this is a learning environment where we try to help each other.As Mike pointed out I might be a little confused,but I think we are all better off for it.If we were all experts there would be no point to this forum.I have learned from this thread as I am sure have others.......I think that is great

Agreed and without much better photos it is not possible to vet the gun in question as to whether the S rune is a fabrication. I remember years ago when it was declared , by so called experts , that the single rune guns were made especially for the Hitler Youth division, a fine example of fantasy, and clearly faulty thinking.

**Mike Steves** · 04-14-2009, 10:12 PM

Originally posted by Matt Weber View Post

Does anyone have any information on the larger "bnz" lettering on some of the Steyr rifles?

Matt

Yes- from what I have seen, all of the large font bnz marked receivers have a Wa623 waffenamt, indicating production at Steyr. Most of the small font bnz receivers have a Wa77 proof, indicating production at Radom. The only other small font guns I have seen were made at Astrawerke, with an l proof on the receiver.

**Death-Ace** · 04-14-2009, 11:39 PM

ah, thanks guys for spreading the knowledge! I've heard what they do to K98s, or so they say they are, at Mitchell's. I guess one dead give-a-way is the polished bolt, plus I've seen some funky finishes with those rifles at gunshows being passed off as "originals." I've generally new to K98s (switched from Japanese militaria to German, ahh, this is gonna be fun), a year or two back and guess I'm still in basics. Is it possible that some of these marked rifles were sent to the Polizei, as they were an SS-run organation, or were they mainly issued old stock rifles, such as Gewehrs. Like I said, I'm pretty new so, I feel kinda like i dunno...a n00b?

**Basile** · 04-15-2009, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Death-Ace View Post

ah, thanks guys for spreading the knowledge! I've heard what they do to K98s, or so they say they are, at Mitchell's. I guess one dead give-a-way is the polished bolt, plus I've seen some funky finishes with those rifles at gunshows being passed off as "originals." I've generally new to K98s (switched from Japanese militaria to German, ahh, this is gonna be fun), a year or two back and guess I'm still in basics. Is it possible that some of these marked rifles were sent to the Polizei, as they were an SS-run organation, or were they mainly issued old stock rifles, such as Gewehrs. Like I said, I'm pretty new so, I feel kinda like i dunno...a n00b?

The Police carried a mixture of old German and often foreign made weapons; very rarely new weapons. Many units had Kar98a carbines, left over from WW1. 98k rifles [and 98k style rifles ] were reserved for front line units , with the rear security detachments making do with what ever was available. An exception would be the SS Polizei Division after 1942. As far as advice, the best advice is CAUTION. That and investing in reference material. Did you happen to visit that site I recommended? They had photo spreads of several Single rune rifles. http://www.ww2weaponsforum.com/

**Death-Ace** · 04-15-2009, 12:49 AM

Basile: I've been to the website, but I'm gonna have to register a bit later, kinda multittasking, between selling an old collection and studies, but I've fould it to be useful! I've seen photos of German police armed with old Gewehrs and the luger I own is a police model, so that's what I basically know about that. Whe I have the time, I'll research the topic more thoroughly, but in the meantime, glad to know you guys are around!

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