Luger Ki Or Kl

[SPYDER]

Hello,first Timer Here.am Looking For Info Reg Luger With Ki Or Kl Marks..i Know About Some Theories..issued To Dachau Guards Or To An Officer School..is There Any Real Answer? I Had One Passed To Me Recently And Would Like To Know..would Like To Get Insured But I Was Told And Have Seen Prices From A Few Hundred To 5 Thousand For Its Worth.the Gun Is A Vet Bring Back And Has Been In Family Since.orig Owner Passed Away 30 Years Ago So Can't Ask Him For Info.all The Years It Sat In Collections No One Did Research Till Now. Iam Not Interested In Selling Just Would Like To Know More About It And Get It Appraised For Insurence.gun Is Marked Effurt 1933 And Has Ki Or Kl .came With A Holster With Date Of 1939 With Waffamt...any Help Or Pointers On This Would Be Welcome

[GWA]

I assume that the "Kl" marking is on the receiver, perhaps near the chamber marking. Is there a chamber marking of a date, if so what is it?

Like the "KU" marked P08's theories abound about these Lugers and as with most WWII mystery guns the investigation always seems to lurch toward the dreaded SS or Gestapo or Luftwaffe due to collector craziness.

Among serious collectors there is another theory about the "Kl" marked guns. It is that the stamping was placed by a subcontractor to Simson in Suhl. As I recall there were several arms contractors in Suhl to which the "Kl" would seem to figure.

To paraphrase Goering who is credited with having said "when I hear the word culture I reach for my Browning" when I hear the "SS theory" I chuckle and walk away.

[SPYDER]

ki kl luger reply

thanks for the reply...only date is 1933 which is on chamber along with the kl mark..i did hear the sub contract theory..something about a firm named whilham klett..

[GWA]

Consider how big the security contingent at a concentration camp might have been and how few of them might have been armed with pistols. I have seen dozens of these 1933 KL marked Lugers...what are the statistical odds of that many?

[SPYDER]

kl reply

all i know is from what i read is like several hundred..who knows..i just wish i knew about this ki and kl mystery when my relative was alive and could have asked him how and where he got the pistol..i am looking into some of his surviving letters and maybe it is mentioned there....i did hear from someone that there are k98's marked ki..know anything of that?

[Richie B]

Spyder

This is a 1933 re-work of an earlier Erfurt made P08.

According to Aarron Davis Standard Catalog of Luger the values (2006) are:-

Poor $750
Fair $900
Good $1200
VG $2250
EXC $3000

He states this version to be "Very rare to extremely rare"

Jan Still in his book "Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers" mentions the various theories discussed above on the meaning of KL or KI.

KI = Kadetten Institut
KL = Konzentration Lager
KL = the firm which did the re-work (Klett according to Davis)
KL = Klausdorf - a town with a repair facility.

It seems nobody has the definitive answer - a very interesting pistol nevertheless.

Richie

[JoeW]

The marking is "Kl./1933", not KI or KL, thus eliminating Kadetten Institut (which never existed anyway) and Konzentration Lager (which never used the Kl. as official abbreviation). Theories advanced over the years in "Auto Mag" (NAPCA monthly magazine) by members have been the firm of Klett, Klemm (an aircraft manufacturer) and the Heereswerkstatt at Klausdorf. I proposed the last as the marking is similar to reworks of K98s marked with Zn. Mine was a Simson, matched with three digit serial number. It is still a mystery.

[GWA]

I think JoeW is dead on the money. Concentration camp stories, like so called SS issued weapons, cause me to shrug my shoulders and move on. Collectors sixty year after the fact are trying to impart some celebrity or even worse mystique into an ordinary item. The "Black Widow" Luger has far and away been the most successful example of this. There were probably as many or more byf 41 and 42 Lugers issued to the Luftwaffe as there may have been to the Waffen SS and most probably went to the Wehrmacht.

[Matt Weber]

I agree with Joe here. The "Kl" lugers are re-worked pistols, and therefore it would make logical sense that the "Kl" marking is from the company that did the work.
I don't believe any of the stories associated with the SS or Gestapo at all. Those are just fantasies created over the years to hype up a gun to be more than what it really is. (As GWA explained) The same can be said for the "death's head" lugers.
The black widow lugers are simply "byf41" and "byf42" with black grips and black based magazines. Nothing more. In fact, these days, it's probably much rarer to find an original "byf42" with wooden grips!

Just like to add that the "Ku" luger is a totally different subject, and should not be associated at all with the "Kl" luger. The "Ku" luger is not a re-work. I believe that those were assembled with leftover and reject parts from the Mauser factory for or by the Luftwaffe sometime after 1942. If anyone wants to discuss the "Ku" luger, Please start a new thread, or look up the old thread we had on it (I believe it was several pages long!)

Spyder,
Can you post some pics of the "Kl" luger you have? It would certainly help with giving an accurate estimate of it.

Matt