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    Spreewerk

    Hi there

    Hi there

    Yust a short note from norway


    I read the article about the P.38 and I must say the the informations about
    Spreewerk is wrong. First of all the companys name was Spreewerk and written like this and not with an e. The Spreewerk pistols was not produced in Berlin, but at their new plant in the Czechoslovakia. This factory was named Spreewerk Werk Grottau. The production did not start in 1940. As matter of fact this factory was not ready for any production until late 1941. Spreewerk also had the second factory not so far away from Werk Grottau, this factory was called Werk Kratzau, mostly producing ammunition. It was at this factory the Spreewerk magazine production took place.
    Grip plates for Spreewerk was produced at the company Julius Posselt, Gablons an Neise again not so far from Werk Grottau (code W1). Magazines were also produced in Czechoslovakia. This was the company Erste Nordböhmische Metallwarenfabrik in Dolni Poustevna (code jvd).
    For more about magazines for the P.38 pistol, see my book Magazine Spotters Guide to P.38 Pistols. Also available in the US.
    There were no P.38 pistols assembled at the company Jos. Rathgeber in München. We have this theory that they may have something to do with the production of the slides marked with the code cvq, but again we do not know this for sure yet.

    #2
    Some mistakes came in here.

    What I meant was that no production took place in 1941.

    Regards
    Per

    Comment


      #3
      Per,

      Thank you very much for your information on the P38.

      However, if you care to re-read the article you will notice that No where in it did I state that the P38s were assembled at the Berlin-Spandau plant. The Berlin-Spandau plant was the companys' HQ. Almost every reference to Spreewerke, including the Heerswaffenampt code book refers to Spreewerke, Berlin-Spandau. The fact is that Spreewerke owned several factories across the third Riech borders, and the plant in Berlin was thier HQ. As for the spelling, I have seen Spreewerke spelled both ways in several books. My copy of the "Liste der Fertigungskennzeichen Fur Waffen, Munition und Gerat, 1944" does spell Spreewerke as "Spreewerk G.m.b.H., Metallwarenfabrik, Berlin-Spandau, Freiheit 4-7".
      Also, no were in the article did I state that production began at Spreewerke in 1940. Production begain in September 1941 as stated correctly in the article. However as stated in the article no P38 were delivered to the army until the end of June 1942. These pistols were rejected by the army, and it wasn't until August 1942 that the first batch of 300 P38s left the Spreewerke factory that were accepted ("eagle/88") by the army, which is stated correctly in the article as well.

      Also in the article I did mention some of the sub-contractors such as "jvd" who produced magazines, but didn't want to devote much attention to these. Actually it is funny you mention these, because I did just complete an addition to the artilce that deals mostly with these subcontractors such as "jvd", "BH", FN Browning, "fnh", and others. This addition is currently be reviewed by Seba, and should be added soon.

      As for Jos. Rathgeber in Munchen, the code "cvq" was assigned to this firm. This is a great source of debate amongst collectors as you probably know. Many people feel that the "cvq" is simply a "cyq" with the "y" cracked off. Though all my research, I would disagree with this view. Your story of this firm making only slides is quite possible, and I haven't heard that story yet, but like all stories, this one will need some evidence to proove it as well.

      FYI; I obtained all the information in my article directly from the Walther factory. I appologize if I did not research the Spreewerke factory as indepth as you would have liked me to.

      Thank you very much for your imput. We our truely honored to have such a well renowned published author here to share such valuable information with us all.

      Matt
      Last edited by Matt Weber; 10-03-2003, 01:25 PM.

      Comment


        #4
        Spreewerk

        Hi there

        I am sorry to inform you this that no, absolute no production of pistols took place at Werk Grottau in 1941. The reason for telling you this is that I have worked with Spreewerk for mant, many yaars now and I can also tell you that I have meat and talked to one of the three workers (Mr. Erich Slomko)that were sendt to Walther Waffenfabrik for training assembying these P.38 pistols at Spreewerk. They left Werk Grottau in june 1942 and stayed three month in Zella Mehlis before they came back late in September 1942. He told me that when they came back the production of parts had yust started.
        I have written a book on Spreewerk, but I am sorry most of it is in Norwegian. But again you will find a lot of interesting pictures, original maps and drawings in the book that you never seen before about Spreewerks three factories.
        I am sorry but what you say about the production start is not true

        Regards
        Per

        Comment


          #5
          Spreewerk

          cyq/cvq

          When it comes to this markings the theory about the broken die is noncens and would not happened in reality. How many pistols would you think passed the Waffenamt before anyone screamed.
          It is a fact that many of these stampings that look like a cvq is a die tool hold in a wrong possition. The factory code was stamped by hand. This is why we can see different types of the cyq marking.

          It is a fact that the company Rathgeber did not produced pistols, or guns at all. Workers at the factory has confirmed this. But again we have this theory about the factory producing some of these slides. It is a fact that the German Wehrmacht was working with several sub-contractors for producing parts to the P.38 program, but the war ended before this happened.

          This year me and my Czech friend found the records from the company Julius Posselt in Czechoslovakia. I have been searching for these papers for years now. This company produced Grip Plates for Spreewerk Werk Grottau. This factory was located in Gablons an Neise, not so far from Werk Grottau (today Jablonec nad Nisou). Also proof for that they also produced Grip Plates for Walther in the end of the war was found. This information is completely new to the collectors of the P.38. These Grip Plates used by Walther was marked the same way as the ones for Spreewerk (code 1W).

          Regards
          Per

          Comment


            #6
            Per,

            Thank you very much for the new information that you found on the grip plates. Please keep us informed of any furthuer findings if you could.

            However, your previous statements that you made, you simply re-stated what I already have said, and what I wrote in the article! The date that the pistols acutally were completed (June, 1942), which is what I just stated above, as well as in the article. As I stated earlier these pistols were rejected by the Army, and it wasn't until late August 1942 that the first Spreewerke produced P38s were accepted and left the factory.(this is probably the date that your friend is referring to!) Spreewerke was issued orders to begin production by the Army way back in Sept. 1941! This is a FACT!

            As for the "cvq" markings. I totally agree with you! I said that I don't agree with the "cracked die" theory. (did you read the post above at all? or the article at all? Just wondering since it seems as though you don't know what I said?)
            Your new theory of a die "holding" error is also incorrect. There is no way that this is possible. I have seen several "cvq" marked P38s that have a very deep "cvq" marking in them. If this die was actually a "cyq" die, then the leg of the "y" would certainly be there! Also if this was a "holding" error, then the "v-part" of the "y" would be the same size as a normal "y" is, however this isn't true. The "v" marking is a bit larger that the "v-part" of the letter "y".
            Also, on many "cvq" marked pistols, I have noticed that the barrels are marked "cyq"!!! Now how could this happen? Slide marked "cvq" (deeply), and barrel marked "cyq"?

            By the way, could you please tell me your full name or the title of your book, so that I can try and find your book? Also can you tell me what dates that you worked in the Spreewerke factory?

            Thanks,
            Matt
            I do have a theory myself on this mystery, but am not inclined to share it until I can find evidence or some proof that it is valid.

            Comment


              #7
              Spreewerk

              The die code marking cyq was applied to the slide manually by hand. If you study a lot of Spreewerk pistols through your life you will see that this stampin varies all the tile. It all depends on the way you hold the die. Make a die like this yourself and try, you will see a lot of ways to do the stamping. Again this is a fact because it is been proven a lot of times.
              Yes you are right you will neve find a barrel marked cvq. Not iven in a cvq marked pistol.

              My name is Per Mathisen and I live in Norway and again I am not so old that I worked in Werk Grottau, thank good. No Norwegian forced labour worked at Spreewerk at all.
              My books can be obtaied in the US from Greysolon Arms in Duluth
              e-mail address gagoods@cpinternet.com
              And again no hard feelings

              Regards
              Per

              Comment


                #8
                Spreewerk

                Sorry to say but a lot of mistakes comes with my writing here.

                When it comes to the stamping of the code cyq on the slide, you will find a lot of ways this was done. It all depends of the angle of the die. I have seen pistols with the code cyq looking like cvq all the way as low as under serial number 500. You can find pistols were the code not only are missing the tail of the y, but also the lower part of the c and the q. With faint c or faint q, or top missing of all three letters. So in a way this is nothing new to us collectors. In a way it is only normal when you stamp by hand.


                Regards
                Per

                Comment


                  #9
                  Hi there!

                  I am Czech citizen, residing in Plzen. My name is Jan Balcar and I am gun related journalist. I am in touch with former Spreewerk employees and I asked Mr. Kopecky from GPL (Grottau Pistole Lauf) Abteliung about the problem cvq slide/cyq barrel. In my humble opinion solution is very simple: The daily production of barrels in one from two shifts was over 500 pieces. 500 was a norm. 6 days a week, 26 days a month it was 26 000 barrels. Monthly pistols production was about 11 000 pieces. The weakest part of chain was GPGr (Grottau Pistole Griffstück) Abteliung with 11 000 frames monthly. Mr. Kopecky says the barrel production was timely interrupted and the employees were transfered for another work.

                  Th cyq / cvq code on slides is stamped after blueing and by hand of course. The second Eagle / 88 and Eagle /HK is stamped in "Abnahmestelle" at last. Remember these facts!

                  And now another evidences:

                  I bought a cvq 0 series pistol with cyq barrel from man, they pick this pistol at April 30. 1945 from Spreewerk Grottau factory when the Germans flew.

                  In Hradec Kralove Police Resereach Collection are two cvq pistols with cyq barrels with no SN and with frame in-the-white. Following the examination record I find out the both pistols were stolen from Spreewerk Grottau factory in May 1945.

                  I compared the "P.38" scripts on cyq and cvq pistols. The scripts are the same! With the same flaws in 8 lower part and weak stamped middle part of number 3. They are stamped with the same die. (Not the same directly but with the die made from the same "mother".)

                  I am sure the all cyq and cvq pistols were produced and assembled in Grottau. I can not say the cvq was new granted code, but it is verisimilar version of the case.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    stamp

                    Hello, very nice discussion, i am not a expert of pistols, but can only say my opinion, that a made a pistol like P38 is not so easy,mainly the slide and frame, by Mauser was the production started after half year in Grottau maybe after starting time of one year, from this is clear,that should be find any other hints of the cvq as the new manufacturer. I believe that this was a bad stamp or a new assigned code to the same firm located in Grottau. As i am a bayonet collector, by end war production could be seen, manytime a variety of not correct dies marking, like dates without all proper digits - ddl4 ,bym 4 this was probably a 43 stamp by it was the 3 number removed and used before the correct die were shipped. The production could be not stoped only that they dont have proper stamp. I assume the P38 as assignation of weapon was more important as the firm code, the WaA proofs were added to gun as a proofed weapon. best regards,Andy from BCN

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Great information Jan! So what does Mr. Kopecky say about the "cvq" markings?
                      Does he have any information about this? This is really what we are all searching for! Please help if you can!

                      BTW, I've just order Pers' book that he mentioned above. It is available in English from the firm in MN as he mentioned above. If anyone would like a review of it, just let me know and I'll post it as soon as I recieve it, and read it.

                      Matt

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Matt, by all means, let us know about the book after you've read it. I'm dying of curiosity!!! Glad you were willing to make the plunge.

                        Ronnie
                        The probability of being watched is directly proportional to the stupidity of your act.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          The book from Per Mathisen names "WALTHERS P.38 PISTOL SPREEWERK PRODUKSJON" is in Norwegian and pictures comments are in both Norwegian and English. Per´s book may be obtaied in the US from Greysolon Arms in Duluth
                          e-mail address: gagoods@cpinternet.com

                          Anothher Per´s book "MAGAZINE SPOTTERS GUIDE TO P.38 PISTOL" is in English and may be obtaied in the US from the same dealer.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Ronnie,

                            I contacted Greysolon Arms and they do have a limited supply coming in from Norway of Per's book, "Magazine Spotters' Guide to P38 Pistols" for $65. They said this book is bi-lingual, so I sent out for a copy right away.
                            They didn't have any other books by Per Mathisen, so I'm not sure how to get that other book that Jan just mentioned?

                            If any of you would like a copy of this book, you can send payment to:

                            Greysolon Arms
                            1920 Greysolon Road
                            Duluth, MN 55812

                            Just add $7 for shipping. Or you can phone in your order, and pay by CC. Number is:
                            (218)-724-8387, and ask for Barb.

                            If anyone would like a review of this book before purchasing, just let me know. I should have the book by next week, and would be happy to let you know what I think of the book, and if it is worth purchasing.


                            Matt

                            PS- Didn't we have a thread on reference books and reviews of them some time ago? I don't remember where that thread was located at? Anyone remember?

                            Comment


                              #15
                              All the Per´s books are made in best style of collector grade publications. I can recomended you both books as a bible for Spreewerk fans. I found all the US firearm forums almost untouched by investigations about Spreewerk proven in last years.

                              In my opinion are both book for sale by author.

                              Comment

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