sauer 38H

[R_Hessian]

Question for the forum members;
How does one tell the original grip's from the repro grips's made today for the Sauer 38H?
I'm looking at a few 38H's and could use any tips as I review these guns.
Thanks!
Robert

[Matt Weber]

Very good Question Robert!
I don't know much about the fake grips that are currently out on the market other than the fact that they usually aren't made of the correct material, and usually are much duller looking.

However, I do know a bit about original grips. If you don't already have it, I would suggest purchasing a copy of "J.P. Sauer & Sohn Vol. I" by Jim Cate. He has a section on Sauer 38H grips in there.
I've attached some photos of a pair of original Sauer 38 grips. Sauer grips will have a variety of markings however, so this is just one variation.

Early war Sauer grips will be made of a molded hard rubber. This material was made from a combination of rubber (usually synthentic, but not always), asbestos, and phenol. Late war grips were made of Kunststoff. Which is a type of plastic, and does not have the esbestos filler material, and is much shinier, and very brittle! (this explains why many late war grips have cracks in them!) These very late war grips should be marked only with the "Ia" marking.

The grips I have shown below are mid to late war, and they do have the asbestos filler material. They are nice and shiney, but not as shiney as the very late war grips.

The other markings on the grips are as follows:
The "242" code is the maker code for the sub-contractor that made the grips for J.P. Sauer. This was RWS, or Romer Weke, Suhl.
Immediately after the maker code is a "/25R" or "/25L". The number "25" simply mean that these were grips made for a Sauer 38H, and the "R" or "L" indicate the side "left" or "right".
The next marking is a large "MD" inside a circle, and above this is the number "43". The "43" marking is unknown to me, and Jim Cate states this in his book as well?
Below this marking is another code. It will either be "S", "T1" horizontal, "T1" verticle,(which mine is), "K" horizontal, and finally "Ia".

That is about all I can think of on Sauer grips. If I come up with any other information, I'll be sure to fill you in!

Matt

[R_Hessian]

thanks!

Matt,
THANK YOU VERY MUCH! You did alot of work helping me with my question. I infact have the Sauer book in question, just failed to grab it and look this area up.
Its the "Ia" that threw me off, I found it in one of the Sauer 38H grips's that I just picked up and noticed that the marking was different from the other grips.
You saved me alot of leg work Matt, Thanks again!
"Lazy"

Very good Question Robert!
I don't know much about the fake grips that are currently out on the market other than the fact that they usually aren't made of the correct material, and usually are much duller looking.

However, I do know a bit about original grips. If you don't already have it, I would suggest purchasing a copy of "J.P. Sauer & Sohn Vol. I" by Jim Cate. He has a section on Sauer 38H grips in there.
I've attached some photos of a pair of original Sauer 38 grips. Sauer grips will have a variety of markings however, so this is just one variation.

Early war Sauer grips will be made of a molded hard rubber. This material was made from a combination of rubber (usually synthentic, but not always), asbestos, and phenol. Late war grips were made of Kunststoff. Which is a type of plastic, and does not have the esbestos filler material, and is much shinier, and very brittle! (this explains why many late war grips have cracks in them!) These very late war grips should be marked only with the "Ia" marking.

The grips I have shown below are mid to late war, and they do have the asbestos filler material. They are nice and shiney, but not as shiney as the very late war grips.

The other markings on the grips are as follows:
The "242" code is the maker code for the sub-contractor that made the grips for J.P. Sauer. This was RWS, or Romer Weke, Suhl.
Immediately after the maker code is a "/25R" or "/25L". The number "25" simply mean that these were grips made for a Sauer 38H, and the "R" or "L" indicate the side "left" or "right".
The next marking is a large "MD" inside a circle, and above this is the number "43". The "43" marking is unknown to me, and Jim Cate states this in his book as well?
Below this marking is another code. It will either be "S", "T1" horizontal, "T1" verticle,(which mine is), "K" horizontal, and finally "Ia".

That is about all I can think of on Sauer grips. If I come up with any other information, I'll be sure to fill you in!

Matt

[Matt Weber]

Robert,

No problem Robert. If you have a grip with the "Ia" marking, then those are very late war. They will be very very shiney, and also very brittle as I described above. These grips will go good with a late war gun with serial range above 450xxx I would say.

Matt

[R_Hessian]

421xxx

Matt,
The "Ia" grips were on a 421XXX serial number, I've picked up 4 38h's numbers; 27xxxx, 41xxxx and 48xxxx The last being a shooter.
Thanks,
Again,
Robert

Robert,

No problem Robert. If you have a grip with the "Ia" marking, then those are very late war. They will be very very shiney, and also very brittle as I described above. These grips will go good with a late war gun with serial range above 450xxx I would say.

Matt

[Jan Balcar]

Please note: Sauer & Sohn Pistol was marked:
Sauer & Sohn model H
or
Sauer & Sohn model 38

Never, and I am sure, never was marked 38 H!
It is very common blunder overseas (seen from Europe...)

[Matt Weber]

Thanks Jan for that info, but Robert was correct with his questioning about the Sauer model 38(H). In the statement you made above, you are actually referring to two different pistols!

Let me expain, since this can be very confusing.

First lets start with the Sauer model 38. The Sauer 38 was a pre-war 7.65mm pistol made for commercial sales to compete against the Walther pistols. Sauer referred to this model as the "model 38" in its' sales catalogs, but none of these "model 38s" have a manual thumb safety.
Sauer submitted this new pistol design to the German Army (Heer), for testings, hoping to get it accepted by the Heer, and thus gain a military contract.
The Army did like the pistol, however it demanded that it have a manual thumb safety!
Naturally Sauer complied with this and added a manual thumb safety. The Heer then accepted the pistol for service, and gave it the proof marked "eagle/37". It was only after this point that Sauer now referred to this pistol as the "Model H". It is my opinion that the "H" stand for "Heer Pistol" (Army pistol). (but that is another story, and we can start a new thread if you wish to discuss it further).
Catologs for Sauer now referred to this pistol exclusively as the Model H. All of the photos shown in these catalogs show a pistol with the manual thumb safety.
Now I suppose you are going to say that Robert should have referred to this pistol as the "Model H" in his questioning about the grips? Wrong!
If Robert would have asked about the grips for a Sauer model H, then I would not have know which pistol he was talking about!?
You see, you are forgetting about the Sauer model 36. The model 36 also had an "H" model that had a manual safety added, so that it would be accepted by the Heer as well!
Therefore Robert stated his question correctly and asked about grips for the Sauer Model 38(H). Or you could write it as "Sauer model 38-H."
Most collectors today forget this information or don't know it, since it is considered common knowledge today to refer to this pisol as the Sauer Model 38(H).

If any of you are still confused about this, please read Jim Cates' book, "J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl" Vol. I. He has an entire section called "The "H" Question" in which he explains this.

Matt

[Jan Balcar]

You want say me you have seen some boxed S&S pistol (double action, concealed hammer, cocking / decocking lever, thumb safety) with box inscript S&Smodel 38 H???

[Matt Weber]

Jan,

I don't even know what your last post means? But, NO you will not find any box marked "Sauer model 38(H)" if that is what you are wondering. If you had read the post above you would've noticed that I never even mentioned this at all!

Please read post above for further explaination.

Does anyone ELSE have any problems understanding this matter?

Matt

[Jan Balcar]

O.K. I make sense. Robert need recognize the original/fake grips for Sauer & Sohn modell H, in U.S. called Model 38(H).