luger 1906 comm. -reblue ? help

[Vid]

Hi,

All these points are fine and they are correct, but if that pistol is correct?. Its the best AE in the world. And if you don't think there are guys out there that cannot duplicate rust blue and have enough talent to leave, rails, muzzle, and even the safety in the white.

I walked into show here last year and there were not one but 6 rare variant Luger's in one guys case and they were all brand new right down to the grip screws. So I asked the guy "who did these, they did a really exceptional job". And the guy tells me their all correct and period. And then the story.

I mean these guns were brand new!!!. Jan Still lists the formula's for the heat treatment in his books. Take the straw pop it in a kiln at 1120 degrees for 22 minutes, yada, yada. The blue is a cake walk now with the money being asked on these pistols. The price tag alone on this piece should be an indicator its re-done.

You can have all the books in the world and your toast, I watched a buddy do one for himself in his barn, it was a G-date. He called me a month or so later and invited me up and asked that I bring my G-date along. I arrived and he pulled his re-done gun out and guess what??. After an hour I could not tell the difference.

I sold all my Luger's at that point. I can understand the criteria for the above post, but after what I have seen I have no doubt this gun has been re-blued and strawed and white rails, muzzle make no difference in that assessment as its being done. And its being done by the largest dealers in the hobby.

Throw the books out the window, as soon as these Luger's rose in price and it was worth it to turn a dog into something that looks like the piece in question?.
That is exactly what they did. Get a picture of those grip screw's and I bet they are absolutely perfect. The first think to go and never hold up. That gun is humped like a high school cheerleader. Is it worth 2500.00?? It probably is re-blued if the job is done to a high degree.

JMO

[Jerry Burney]

Vid, You surprise me with overwhealming negativity And might I say an unusualy cavalier attitude way short of facts.

Straw is not achieved at 1120 degrees F. True, it can be done in a toaster oven but this misinformation is a minor matter.

To achieve a restoration of this quality..the pistol would have had to start out in pretty fine shape to begin with. This would have had to be done by one of the best in the World, say Gale Morgan or perhaps Ted Green. This was not done in your Friends barn. Are you sure you know enough about these pistols to make an intelligent determination of originality? So far in this thread you have not demonstrated any details that can be substantiated. Only wild conjecture.

The price tag...I have seen many a gun dealer who is not familiar with Lugers underprice them because it walked into their shop, he pays $800 and he wants to make a quick buck. You stay in business by turning your product and making a profit, not squeezing every dime untill 2 years later you have sold it for the maximum.

To declare this pistol a re blue from the available photo's because it looks brand new is pretty egocentric. Not only that ...but it cheats the fellow who asked for your advice. Just because you have seen re finished pistols before..now every one you see is re finished?

I am only exploring the possibilities. I think much more exploriation must be done to actually determine it. It may well have been expertly refinished... but from what I am able to see there is a STRONG possibility that this pistol is righteous. I have never declared it is or isn't. Simply that more information is necessary.
I wish I had your seeming clarivoyance...

To get back to the subject..This pistol shows very distinct machining marks where they should be. Crisp and unmolested. Unbuffed.
The grips look good, no chip out of the safety area.
I would want to see the front & rear gripstraps.

All in all, this pistol would have to be on my bench for a while for me to make a setermination on it. However there are enough indicators already for me to lean towards original.

One last thing...This pistol..even if restored would command a $2500 price tag and looks to be a bargain at that.

Jerry Burney

[james m]

Jerry:
I will rarely call a firearm from photos anymore because it's just too darn difficult. I don't have a problem with this Luger however as it's clear to me,and the majority of the others who have posted on this thread, that it's been refinished. This certainly isn't the work of one of the top notch refinishers and it appears that the pistol was not properly prepared.
An unfortunate event considering the relative rarity of this model. I agree that the fakers of Lugers are getting better all the time and if you do spend some time in Arizona as your personal information states you know you don't have to travel far here to see some top notch examples of Luger fakery.
Does this pistol still have value as a representative example? IMO it certainly does but I wouldn't pay $2500 for it.
Jim

[Jerry Burney]

Jim, I don't have a problem with this Luger however as it's clear to me,and the majority of the others who have posted on this thread, that it's been refinished.
If you believe this pistol is refinished..I would love to hear a pursuasive argument towards that opinion. A majority is no argument at all. Try to elucidate and make it clear to me why you believe this.

I have listed point by point why this pistol begs for further investigation.

Your total argument is far less satisfying.

"this appears to be a re-blue. The color of the blueing IMO is all wrong & the majority say so! "

Please Jim....I am still a student but I am not learning anything from people here who lay claim to knowledge.

Lay out you points and refute mine. I will check in here shortly and see if you really have anything to add to this.

Jerry Burney

[Vid]

Vid, You surprise me with overwhealming negativity And might I say an unusualy cavalier attitude way short of facts.

Straw is not achieved at 1120 degrees F. True, it can be done in a toaster oven but this misinformation is a minor matter.

To achieve a restoration of this quality..the pistol would have had to start out in pretty fine shape to begin with. This would have had to be done by one of the best in the World, say Gale Morgan or perhaps Ted Green. This was not done in your Friends barn. Are you sure you know enough about these pistols to make an intelligent determination of originality? So far in this thread you have not demonstrated any details that can be substantiated. Only wild conjecture.

The price tag...I have seen many a gun dealer who is not familiar with Lugers underprice them because it walked into their shop, he pays $800 and he wants to make a quick buck. You stay in business by turning your product and making a profit, not squeezing every dime untill 2 years later you have sold it for the maximum.

To declare this pistol a re blue from the available photo's because it looks brand new is pretty egocentric. Not only that ...but it cheats the fellow who asked for your advice. Just because you have seen re finished pistols before..now every one you see is re finished?

I am only exploring the possibilities. I think much more exploriation must be done to actually determine it. It may well have been expertly refinished... but from what I am able to see there is a STRONG possibility that this pistol is righteous. I have never declared it is or isn't. Simply that more information is necessary.
I wish I had your seeming clarivoyance...

To get back to the subject..This pistol shows very distinct machining marks where they should be. Crisp and unmolested. Unbuffed.
The grips look good, no chip out of the safety area.
I would want to see the front & rear gripstraps.

All in all, this pistol would have to be on my bench for a while for me to make a setermination on it. However there are enough indicators already for me to lean towards original.

One last thing...This pistol..even if restored would command a $2500 price tag and looks to be a bargain at that.

Jerry Burney

Jerry,

If you read my post you would realize that I had not intended to quote exact figures on heat treatments.

And every facet of your argument of originality has been overcome by sheister's in the hobby. The straw was done in a barn the blue? was done by a Pennsylvania guru who did it for 650.00 about half of what Gale Morgan would charge and the gun would rival his job.

Some of the biggest Luger crooks are in Pennsylvania, and they do not miss anything. The chances of that weapon being in a gun shop at 2500.00 is 90/10 against.

And if you read my last paragraph, I have already stated the gun was worth 2500.00 if the blue was done in good fashion.

Am I negative on these? your dam right I am, and for good reason. You need to understand that your intelligent basis of fact in this case is "conjecture" due to the amount of frauds in the market place. You have no facts either, you have conjecture. You just packaged it differently.

I don't like the gun! That is my opinion. And if you can get it? I will wager its bad. When looking at Luger's, the market is just as important a factor than white rails and toggle pins. That is the reality, and no book is going to save a collector who steps in to that aspect of the hobby. Nor will blind faith in that books content.

Are you the seller of this weapon?

[james m]

If you can't tell this is a badly refinished Luger you really need to get into collecting something else. I have NEVER seen anything approximating an original Luger that looks anywhere like this one. I rarely get short with fellow collectors but I'm going to make an exception in this case because I don't want anyone viewing this thread to think this is remotely like an original.
I you think so you're entitled to you opinion. Perhaps you're the peddler of this Luger for all I know.

[Jerry Burney]

Gentlemen, I will slip out of this sandbox and go hang with some adults. I crave the opinions of people who at least sound like they are knowledgable.

All I have gotten in this childish playground is a sum total of absolutely nothing.

It's so good it's a fake..Everyone say's it's a reblue so that makes it so.

Throw all your books out the window!
Reference books are what keep you from posting on Forums and looking like a moron. I hope you have not taken your own advice....

My conjecture pointed out some very valid points for consideration. No one else here has bothered to refute ANY of them.

So it is plain to me fellows that you have nothing to offer here except more hot air. I have better ways to waste my time.

Jerry Burney

[Vid]

My conjecture pointed out some very valid points for consideration. No one else here has bothered to refute ANY of them.

Jerry Burney

The market has adapted to your points of consideration and is taking the money of folks who fly with textbook jibberish as a means to make a judgment call on a Luger or many other items in the marketplace.

To fail and recognize that is just irresponsible. Hug your books, and I will watch my ass. Lets see who wins.

I would rather miss a good piece 10 percent of the time than get bent over 90 percent of the time. And that is reality, like it or not.

[james m]

Gentlemen, I will slip out of this sandbox and go hang with some adults. I crave the opinions of people who at least sound like they are knowledgable.

Please do that and take your POS Luger with you. The days are long gone when something like this will fool anyone who has been collecting for a while.
Jim

[GWA]

Vid and James, I don't know either of you but I do know Jerry Burney and I do know pre1918 Parabellums. As I posted on this thread and the one running simultaneously with it, more photos need to be seen in order to determine the authenticity of the finish.

As Jerry stated the arguments posited by Vid and James are empty. Straw on a 1912 Erfurt will often be stronger than anything that could be produced by DWM. I have perhaps six 1910 DWMs with straw just as fine as that on the pistol presented here. From there I can take you to 1911's, 1912's, etc in my collection that look just as fine as the subject '06. These were military issue not commercials.

Many, many early commercials were taken care of or put away and still show almost as if new. Because you both come from the SW you seem to be somewhat pushed to the negative by your neighbor down there. He's probably bummed out a lot of new collectors but that doesn't mean everything is bad. He should be used as a learning aid. That's what I did years ago after taking a good screwing. Final judgement almost always requires hands on inspection but lacking that one must judge from photos. It would have been helpful to see clear photos of the "GERMANY" stamp on the '06.

As to value, if the pistol is original and were it a 9mm it might draw $5000 as a 7.65mm I think alot less. Have fun, George Anderson

[Jerry Burney]

This is really too much fun! I hardly do anything and you react like the buffoons you have proven yourselves to be!

Vid, I understand, you have removed yourself from the game, folded your cards.....Your scared. Your opinions have lost all validity. I have one piece of advice for those who have fear.

FEAR IS A DISABLER.

Jim, I want to clear up one point that you have made up in your mind as a fantasy. It would take too long and a team of Phychiatrists to clear out the rest of them.

I DO NOT OWN this (dagger?) Pistol. I have no dog in this fight. I based my clear and concise observations in a totally unbiased fashion.

Vid based his on fear and suspicion.

Jim based his on... well....NOTHING more intelligent than flapping his lips.

You gentlemen are the poster children of why people should not believe the opinions of people who post them with SQUAT to back them up.


Hey! I have found a good way to waste time!

Jerry Burney

[rhj]

Gentlemen:
I thank you all again. There is a helluva lot of knowledge out there so thank you for sharing with me.
RHJ

[Vid]

Jerry,

I do not see anywhere in my posts in which I called you any names. I moved out of Luger's and into art. This is an unfired 1906 Brazilian. Look at the grip screws and look at the gun.

Now get out of my face before I show you what I really know. Go away trouble maker.


<a href="http://s254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/Allach1/?action=view&current=BRASILIAN20LUGER201906207_652 0PARA_.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh100/Allach1/BRASILIAN20LUGER201906207_6520PARA_.jpg" border="0" alt="1906"></a>

[Jerry Burney]

Vid, Please accept my apology. I got carried away! Frustrated with people who have no valid points to offer. "Now get out of my face before I show you what I really know" This sounds very much like a threat, I will pre accept your apology if that is how you meant it, and if it was not some threat, empty though it might be....I have been waiting for anything you might know on this subject.

I am no expert on 1906 Lugers or any other for that matter. I simply took a look at photo's and expressed an opinion, however misguided..Hoping for the kind of intelligent analysis and give and take granted by GWA. This Gentlemen makes some valid points.

I have taken the liberty of contacting a known authority on early Luger pistols. He has been kind enough to voice an extensive analysis of this pistol from the photograps provided.

It backs up all of our thought to some degree. Some of us have been more right than wrong...I will let his statement simmer and then we can all feel better!

Jerry,
It took me a little while because I was not a member of the forum and had to register before I could see the photos. Much of the gun probably is original but in my opinion has had some cosmetic work on it. The straw is a total re-do (improper sanding on the take-down lever, uneven/wavy finish on the thumb safety, too dark). The machining on the right frame ear is too coarse for a commercial and the bright polished area under the safety has been re-cut with considerable run-out. The sides of the little abutments of the rear toggle link behind the toggle knob is machined in the wrong direction. The front sight is pretty rough considering the adjacent metal work, but it may have had an aftermarket sight on it and someone put an original style back on. I see no evidence of any proofs (which is possible but rare) other than the DWM barrel inspector mark. The left side of the receiver, where you would expect to see proofs, looks re-finished because the intersection of the plane of the side and the curved relief at the front of the receiver is too sharp and too straight. The rest of the gun looks pretty good. The barrel serial number rarely shows any halo on these models and the photo isn't sharp enough to tell about the GERMANY stamp.
That is my humble opinion. RW.

I will let this gentleman remain nameless. He has registered on WA just for this request of mine and he can chime in if and when he likes.

This is what RHJ originally asked for and after some effort we have fullfilled our mission.

Jerry Burney

[Vid]

Jerry,

Fair enough, it was not a threat other than naming the peoples responsible for these weapons that cause problems like we see here between collectors. It is not all going on in Arizona. Pennsylvania is a haven for activities for which dealers separate new collectors from their money based on that collectors new found knowledge in books. The whole game disgusts me. And I never got burnt on a piece luckily. I know who R.W is. and I am sure he knows the game.

I would just assume let this one drop, and hope that new collectors take note of the issues when dealing with these weapons.

Best,

Kris