Reopening the can of worms

[TP Alexander]

As we all know, no German pistols came back from WW2 already chromed/nickel plated. The veterans merely forgot, that after they got home, sometime in the late 40's or early 50's, they got the pistols plated. After they aged some more, they forgot that they had them plated, and could only remember that they got the pistol in WW2 and that it must have come that way back from the war. They often say that they took them off of an SS Officer that way. I have heard it more than once!
We now come to a book written by Roscoe Blunt Jr., who, at last report, was still alive and living in Shrewsbury, Mass. The name of the book is FOOT SOLDIER and chronicles his time in the 84th Infantry Division. The soft cover edition is by DA CAPO PRESS. I will quote from Page 164.
"The German major stood in front of me, unbuckled his chrome-plated Luger and handed it to me."
I am cross-referencing this to the living history section, in case anyone knows Roscoe Blunt and as to whether he is still alive or not.

Anyone care to comment???

Tim

[Frogprince]

As stated in an earlier thread I think that we owe a debt to and have to respect the military service of veterans. That said, there are still some questions that have to be addressed in determining the truth of the matter: 1) Was it a Luger versus a “pocket pistol”? 2) Was it “chrome” plating versus nickel? 3) Was it a private purchase pistol versus a government property (Waffenamted) pistol? 4) Without seeing the pistol itself how do we take the comments to the next level? FP

[TP Alexander]

Back at cha'

Nobody can day that I am disrespectful to vets. I served in the Marine Corps for 2 years and also served in the Reserves. When I am at any major airport and see soldiers, Marines , whoever, I walk up to them and shake their hands and ask them how they are doing. This isn't a case of disrespect. When people get older, all people, they forget stuff. I don't feel that it matters if it's a pocket pistol, a Luger, a P-38, government issue or not. I'm not upset about Frog Prince's comments, I just disagree as to the points that he made. These German officers knew they were in for the duration-win or lose. They weren't going home after their stretch of service....they were going to be seeing things through whether they liked it or not.
Tim

[phild]

I don't see how any of FrogPrince's statements could be taken as anything but valid guidlines to the issue?

Issue or private purchase simply means did they own the pistol or were they signed for military property? I personally don't believe that ANY firearm was chrome plated as it would about impossible to do and keep the firearm working.....so I assume that the gun in question was nickel plated and not chrome.

It is a fact that a lot of nickel plated German pistols were put into that state at the request of GIs both before and after the end of WWII while in Europe. 1st hand accounts have revealed that this work was done in Paris, Belgium and probably other countries as well....long before the guns even arrived in the U.S. This is not to say that some were not plated in the U.S. as well.

I think that it is/was possible that some Germans may have had some pistols nickel plated before the end of WWII. I think that it would have been very few and very unlikley to be the one that they were issued and signed for.....this would have been very very stupid and risky!!

[vitts]

The best arguement against nickle plated german pistols that I have ever heard is the fact that it was forbidden under military regulations. I meen they were not even allowed to sharpen their bayonets!

The 2nd best is with all the egotistical officers in the US or British military where are all the nickle plated Colt 1911's and Webley's?

What do you think?

[Frogprince]

There was no disrespect intended. I’m a U.S. Army veteran myself, and at times carried my own pistol, a government property pistol, a rifle, or a combination of arms as the situation dictated. I have at hand many period photographs showing German officers with pocket pistol size holsters. I’m sure that if I looked I could find the larger service (ie: P 08 - P 38) pistols being carried especially by the more junior grade officers.

While I don’t think I have the Army regulations immediately available, Luftwaffe regulations specify as of 1942 officers were to buy their own pistols or carry a government issue one. The list of government supplied pistols included specific pocket pistols of both German and foreign manufacture, and the aforementioned service pistols.

That a German Army officer might for whatever reason carry a private purchase factory nickel pistol in combat is not I think impossible. But if it is a chrome (or nickel) plated government property Luger or P-38 - that crosses the line into simply being not credible. FP

[Von Hoth]

I guess this dead horse will be beaten forever.

[Gary Cain]

Why do you disagree with his comments? They are very relevant to the discussion. In a court of law those are the exact questions that would be asked. You have to remember, it's not what you believe it's what the world believes. For you to change he mind of the collectors and historians of the world you have to present irrefutable proof that it was done. In the 64 years since the end of the war no such evidence has ever been provided by anyone.

For an example irrefutable proof would be factory records of the pistol involved with serial numbers etc. and a factory record of it being plated.
That's all we would require. Produce it and you have made your case that it occured with at least one pistol. And yes the Germans kept those kinds of records and the Allies captured them and they are available for research purposes in a lot of cases.

You reference the mans book. When did he write it? How many years after the fact did he finally put those memories to paper? You might be surprised that just because it was written down it may not be accurate.

I remember when I was helping my friend out in his gunshop a gentleman came in to sell a revolver he had. He claimed he was an MP in Vietnam(this occured in 1985 or 86) and had carried the revolver (a Colt Trooper Mark III) on duty is 1967-68. I told him that it was not possible that it was this revolver and my friend basically said I was accusing the man of lying. I said no he isn't he hasjust forgotten which revolver he was carrying and showed him the entry in the Blue Book of Gun Values that showed the Trooper Mark III didn't exist in 1968. Now remember this is not even 20 years after the fact and allready the memory was fading.

Your comment about the German officers feelings and being in it for the duration adds what to the conversation? It is true but what exactly does it mean? Do you imply that because they knew they were going to fight to the end that they would break a very serious law that carried very heavy punishment? If you believe that you obviously don't know any of them. I am a member of a few Kameradschafts and speak with the veterans frequently and the thought of doing that to a government weapon is to them absurd.


Gary

Nobody can day that I am disrespectful to vets. I served in the Marine Corps for 2 years and also served in the Reserves. When I am at any major airport and see soldiers, Marines , whoever, I walk up to them and shake their hands and ask them how they are doing. This isn't a case of disrespect. When people get older, all people, they forget stuff. I don't feel that it matters if it's a pocket pistol, a Luger, a P-38, government issue or not. I'm not upset about Frog Prince's comments, I just disagree as to the points that he made. These German officers knew they were in for the duration-win or lose. They weren't going home after their stretch of service....they were going to be seeing things through whether they liked it or not.
Tim

[TP Alexander]

Yup

Partial Quote from Gary Cain-"Your comment about the German officers feelings and being in it for the duration adds what to the conversation? It is true but what exactly does it mean? Do you imply that because they knew they were going to fight to the end that they would break a very serious law that carried very heavy punishment? If you believe that you obviously don't know any of them."

Yes, sorry I was a little foggy there on making my point, but this is exactly what I am saying. I have heard people say that if a regulation was passed, that the German military adhered to it -strictly. And yet, how many times have I heard of helmets that should not have had decals on them because they were issued after the cutoff date and order stating 'no decals', still have a single or double decal on them. Or SS units, so proud of their old outfit continuing to wear their old cufftitle for the duration, rather than the new unit that they were assigned too. Understand me, I don't believe that any pistols were nickel plated, but I believe that a proud and overbearing officer, who thought his **** didn't stink, be he Army or SS or Luftwaffe, could feel he was above the regulations. I'm sorry, but even the officers of the Wehrmacht are human, and humans can think that they are high and mighty and above the law.

Roscoe Blunt's book was issued in 1994. But according to the book, he kept a diary and copious notes from which to draw on in his later life, so I am not so sure that the faulty memory can apply in this case.

Another partial quote from phild-"I also recall that the actual pistol brought by Mr. Blunt was a P.38 (stated to be the one from the above account) and not a Luger. What we apparently have is a nickel plated P.38"
Fill me in if you would please, on where you got this information. I am honestly interested in hearing more about this.

[Von Hoth]

I think what Gary Cain is saying and what I believe is that this is all a mute point.
Since there is no evidence yet to convince collectors otherwise, then this conversation does not matter.


This is the "unicorn" tale of WWII guns.

the only positive thing about this rumor of chromed guns is that it has caused some people to pass over Verchromt Walther PP's and PPK's because of the accepted believe that there were no Chromed Walthers. But the Verchromt Walther's were done at the factory. (but this is not shiny and bright like chrome, it is a dull silver matte finish)

there are probably a few collectors who bought a verchromt Walther for cheap because the seller believed it was refinished post war.

another thing that could have added to this rumor is that many guns that the G.I.'s. brought home were left in the "white" because the factory still was making pistols but skipping the blueing and finishing because of the desperation of the war.

It is extremely likely to me that these pistols left in the white in the fading memories of veterans helped spread the rumor that there were "chromed" pistols from german factory finished guns.

My own grandfather who was 78 last year is a great example of how vets forget exactly what they had. I brought two walther ppk's to show him (he was going blind though), I put them into his hands and he immediately said, "this is the kind of gun I brought back from the war". he was very convinced. But did he know that a sauer 38h looks similar? Or did he know that walther pp's were slightly bigger?

the veterans don't remember details of stuff that did not matter to them.

[GerColctor]

Guys, remember that the GIs of WW II were made of of people. The good and the bad. Some came home and were good, even great citizens, some were to became criminals, others ordinary guys. Some vets were prome to "story telling" that got better as it was told as time passed.

Where did the stories that we often hear start that the "family" Luger or P-38 that was captured from a high ranking army officer [general], a high ranking SS officer, fighter pilot, tank commander, etc, but never from the ordinary grunt. Who originated these stories, the vet or his family.

In the mids 90s I bought a police unit marked and "1920" stamped Model 1914 Mauser from the son of a vet. He had an old photo of his father holding this pistol while standing next to an older looking captured German Army "general" in a field uniform. with open holster. He said whole family would hear the story every year about how the vet captured a general and his pistol.

My son, who can read the German enlisted ranks off shoulder boards, noticed the pips clearly in the photo. He told the seller that the German was an army NCO, not an officer. the son flipped out that we would question the fact that the German was not a general, because his late father always told him the truth. Even photographic evidence wasn't "good" enough. His father said the guy in the picture was a general and that is what he was.

As a young boy I would talk to some vets who were friends of my father and sometimes they would show me their captured pistols or bayonets that were chromed in machine shops in CT. At the time I thouight those weapons looked great.

As I recall, the vets with the best "take homes" served on ships in the US Navy. Everybody wanted to take home something from the war.

I am sure some vets try to look "good" when recalling events that they had been involved in during WW II. Capturing chrome pistols from high ranking officers helps advance that. To some people taking a miltary issued Luger from a simple solider in the field isn't "good" enough. Believe it or not, even vets can exagerate.

Buy the item, not the story.

[TP Alexander]

I agree

Buy the item, not the story. I agree with that 100%. I also have noticed that no one ever got anything off of an ordinary infantryman. It's always been an SS officer or a high ranking Army Officer. No disrespect intended towards the vet. I just always remember that they, like the rest of us, are human. I hope no one minded me starting this thread. I like to play the 'Devil's Advocate' from time to time.
Thanx,
Tim

[ranvette]

He lives in the next town over from me.As far as chrome pistols go I would not be surprised if a few in the German command had one.It certainly is not something one would want to have on a battle field.Christ on a sunny day you could be spotted from 5 miles with a gleaming chrome pistol.


http://www.jazzhistorydatabase.com/c...ighlight=bunny

[GerColctor]

Lugers were not a big "deal" in the German military. It is a large, heavy gun. That is why in most period photos of high ranking officers you see them carring smalkler pistols.

Americans love the Luger. It was a big prize to bring home. The Germans thought of it as just another tool.

Joe

[Von Hoth]

I kind of agree with you to a point.
but i have read that many people like the way the luger feels and it "points" best.
that being said................
The luger is way over hyped here because every "bubba" and other people want them so now I can never afford them. It seems like that every professional or middle aged guy that wanted to start collecting guns with a little money created this huge demand that has sent prices into ridiculous amounts.

millions of lugers were made but i can't even afford one. I have bought early party leader PPK's (RZM's) for under a thousand which are FAR FAR more rare than Lugers yet I can't touch a military luger because they are 2500 plus.


I'd say it's one of the most over hyped items of all time.