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J.P. Sauer and Sohn 7.65mm

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    #1

    J.P. Sauer and Sohn 7.65mm

    Ok so here's the story I have a couple that owns a pistol made by J.P. Sauer and Sohn. They that their father got it from a German general during WWII. The pistol is nickel plated and has the general's name on it or so the story goes. I was wondering if someone could either help me find some info on the general or maybe help me look the pistol up using the serial number. The General's name is Bahlman and the serial number is 83893. Sorry I do not have pictures because the people are elderly and not computer literate. Any help would be greatly appreciated.


    Kenneth
    Tags: None
    #2
    Kenneth,

    the serial number 83,893 belongs to a Sauer model 1913, made at the end of WWI. Most of the Sauer 1913s in the 80.xxx to 85.xxx were Imperial army accepted. Look for the following Imperial Army acceptance markings:

    1/right side of frame: there is a crown/N proof mark (all 1913s do have it there). If Imperial accepted, there will be a tiny crown/Q (the Q in Gothic) left to the eagle/N.

    2/ very likely there is also a Prussian eagle on the front of the trigger guard.

    IF this gun is Imperial accepted, the nickel finish is not factory original.

    Is the name really "Bahlman" (with only one "n")??? Not a German name. The whole thing sounds more as if a GI has applied his name to the pistol. Sounds, like somebody has nickeled it after WWII. Original nickel plated pre WWII pistols are very rare – most of the nickel monsters were nickeled after the war to have an "Officer's pistol".

    Regards

    Martin

    Comment

      #3
      Kenneth,

      here you can find pictures of the markings I was talking about:

      Imperial acceptance crown/Q left to crown/N:

      http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/...auer19136a.jpg

      http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/..._ImpSauer5.jpg

      Prussian trigger guard eagle:

      http://luger.gunboards.com/uploaded/...auer191314.jpg


      Regards

      Martin

      Comment

        #4
        Hi

        Ok, it might have been Bahlmann but here's the deal. The vet who brought this back told his family it was taken off this officer during the Nuremberg trials in which was a guard at. Is there anyway I could track either the general or who was tried in Nuremberg?


        Kenneth

        Comment

          #5
          we would need photos of the engraving to show if it really was plated and engraved in period-teutonic fashion. Because, like the other guy said, being original nickel plated is quite uncommon, especially engraved. Most engraved guns were finished blued according to the books I've read.

          there are some experts on some forums like Dieter Marschall on the p-38 forum who can even tell by the artist style what region it was engraved in. (or he asks someone and they tell him.)

          Comment

            #6
            Kenneth, Someone is pulling your leg. A guard supposedly consficates a pistol from a German Officer who arrives in Nuremburg for a war crimes trial. An Officer arriving at Nuremburg has already been extensively searched and interogated for months before arriving there. The pistol MAY be legit, untill we see it who knows? BUT..the story is hogwash.
            Jerry Burney

            Comment

              #7
              Hi

              HI Jerry,

              You have a point and this is what I thought initially but I believe that captured items were kept with the person not directly but in some sort of make sift arms room. So the items basically followed the person where ever they went and this is where I think the guard liberated the pistol. I'm hoping to get some pictures here soon.


              Kenneth

              Comment

                #8
                Hi

                Ok so I see everyone is caught in the story. So let me try asking these questions:

                1. What's the value of a normal Sauer 7.65mm in very good condition?

                2. What's the value of a Sauer 7.65mm that was normal condition but nickel plate after the fact?

                3. What's the value of a Factory Nickel plated Sauer?


                I think if I can get these questions answered then I'll have everything I need.


                Thanks
                Kenneth

                Comment

                  #9
                  Concerning your 2nd question: if the gun does not have its original finish (whatever it is) its value as a collectable gun is highly compromised. Some say that the value drop about 50% at least in these situation. I can't give you an estimative as I do not live in US, but I would say 450.00 is a fair price for a complete Sauer 1913 and holster. Maybe the others can give you a better picture in this matter.

                  Douglas

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Kenneth,

                    regarding your questions:

                    1. What's the value of a normal Sauer 7.65mm in very good condition?
                    Sorry, but this is a question like "What's the value of a Buick in very good condition?".

                    The value depends on several factors, like model, variation, markings and the like.

                    As I said before: # 83,893 is a Sauer 1913, second variation (very common) and is PROBANLY Imperial accepted (crown/Q) and MAYBE has a trigger guard eagle (for 80% it will have the trigger guard eagle). The latter feature puts a big premium on the pistol (approx. 15 to 25% to be added, maybe more). Also, a normal Imperial accepted Sauer 1913 (crown/Q) will bring more than a standard second variation (approximately 10 to 15% more).

                    2. What's the value of a Sauer 7.65mm that was normal condition but nickel plate after the fact?
                    As Douglas already mentioned: this will lower the value drastically.

                    3. What's the value of a Factory Nickel plated Sauer?
                    Approximately 15 to 20% to be added.

                    Regards

                    Martin

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Why is no one curious about the General's name engraved on the pistol?

                      that will be the most important part about the pistol.

                      is there any way you can get a picture of it?


                      if it was presented by someone, it will have two names or an even and his name on it and maybe a year.



                      if it has this and was plated by a bubba later on in the US, what a shame.

                      Comment

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