M1 carbine value?

[Matt Weber]

Need some help with this one. I have a very late war M1 carbine. It is a 1945 dated Inland, and has all late features. It is all Inland, and in very good condition, but on the top of the receiver it has a hand stamped "1" on it!
When I purchased it I must be honest that I didn't know enough about carbines to know what it was. I was told by another collector that it is very rare.
I just got a new book on M1 carbines, and it states that this hand stamped "1" is one of the rarest carbines you can get!
I was planning on selling it, but want to know what would be a fair asking price for it?
I'm not sure since I have not seen one like this for sale before?

Any help would be appreciated. I can post photos later.

Thanks,
Matt

[Ronnie Fry]

I know what you are describing Matt, the value is what's got me stumped. Nothing much to compare it to....

I'm asking around to some of my Carbine Club bud's..

r

[Gary Cain]

Hi Matt,

I havn't seen one of those in ages(like 7 years) and when it sold it was in the 3500 range if my memory isn't too far off.


Gary

[ChrisCook]

M1 Carbine

Post over here Matt:

http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/carbine/carbine.pl

Might also want to try this:


http://www.odcmp.org/new_forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=32

Chris....

[mkb42h]

pardon my ignorance, but what does "1" mean?

[Matt Weber]

Thanks guys. I have never seen another one either. That is why I'm not sure of the value of it.

Here is a photo of the receiver in case some of you don't know what I'm talking about. On top of the receiver all carbines are marked, "U.S. Carbine/ Cal. 30 M1". But on mine the "1" is way off to the side of the "M" and is clearly hand stamped!
The book I mentioned it titled, "Collecting the M1 Carbine III" by J.C. Harrison. It mentions this rare receiver marking, and shows a photo of it on pages 24-25.

Matt

[phild]

I wish you the best with it and all but i really don't understand why anyone would make a fuss of this....im talking about collectors, researchers...etc

Is there some special designation or purpose for this "variation" to be marked like this? Where these set aside for airborne-raider-ranger-oss (combined!)double secret "elite" troops?

OR

Was the offset '1" a result of a shifted positon in the jig that held the stamping dies or a broken die that was later slaped on by hand (sloppy placement at that) to meet the minimium specs and get the inspectors to accept the lot ...

I can find one off mistakes in a good percentage of most military firearms that I really examine. Are simple mistakes in marking a gun like this really becoming "collectable"??? Lord help us.

[Jerry Burney]

#1

I can't put up a good argument with J.C. Harrison but I wouldn't pay one cent more for this marking.
Just my 2cents.
Jerry Burney

[mkb42h]

i guess its kind of like a 3 legged indian buffalo nickel?

[phild]

i guess its kind of like a 3 legged indian buffalo nickel?

Exactly. The problem is this: War production material does not compare to coins and stamps. I have long suspected that starting about 30 years ago thousands of frustrated coin collectors migrated over to the military collecting field bringing thier misguided coin collecting criteria and standards with them.

We see it everywhere in the hobby. There is a big difference (I know because I've worked in it) between a factory producing small arms (or anything else) for a military contract and the U.S. Mint!

Next we will be seeing Proof military firearms! Don't laugh as the medal collectors are about 1/2 the way to estsablishing this catagory for 3rd Reich awards.

[james m]

The anal rententive mentality of those using coin collecting terminology to describe (Hype?) firearms and militaria has become a source of amusement to many of us. Particularly when an items condition is described as "Mint" and it looks like something the dog dragged in!
Jim

[Ronnie Fry]

All,
Here's part of my p/m to Matt... Just thinking out the subject

"
Here’s some addl. Info for you--- From the Carbine Club<O></O>
<O> </O>
The s/n range for the M1/M2 hand stamped receivers (they say) is 6629884 to 7234883. That’s 604,999 rifles that might have been either way. I would think that most production would have been going to M2’s by that time. So, if 25% of that s/n range went still to M1’s, that’s 151,250 hand stamped M1’s. Now we’re talking about way over 6 million total production. That’s a pretty small percentage of the total.<O></O>
<O> </O>
I’m still looking in my books for futher clarification. Will drag down “Warbaby” next to see what Larry has to say……<O></O>
<O> </O>
Rare, maybe. Uncommon, certainly

Just my .02

Ronnie<O></O>

[Matt Weber]

Yes, the serial number on my carbine is "6741xxx".

Phil, No, this is not a result of a broken die, or mistake made by Inland. These were hand stamped. The story goes, as Ronnie explained, is that these were set aside to be made into M2 carbines, but were later made into M1 carbines, and simply hand stamped the "1" on the receiver instead of a "2".

Now, for those of you who don't think this is worth more, or wouldn't pay any more for this, you must be joking!! So I guess you're saying all P38s are the same!? An AC no date is worth the same as an AC41? or a standard "byf44" is worth the same as a police marked "byf44"? Of course not!! It's the rarity that ups the value!

All items, no matter what you collect, value is determined by two things: condition, and rarity! This carbine is much rarer than a standard Inland. That's just the plain truth. Look at the numbers. Now, I'm not saying it's worth $1million or anything, but probably is worth at least 10-20% more than a standard carbine.

I don't believe it's anal retentive at all. It's called attention to detail. Anal retentive would be saying that the hand stamped "1" should be .025in to the left of the "M" and .000237in. above it, and at a 2 degree angle to it. Now that's anal!

Matt

[phild]

Yes, the serial number on my carbine is "6741xxx".

Phil, No, this is not a result of a broken die, or mistake made by Inland. These were hand stamped. The story goes, as Ronnie explained, is that these were set aside to be made into M2 carbines, but were later made into M1 carbines, and simply hand stamped the "1" on the receiver instead of a "2".

Now, for those of you who don't think this is worth more, or wouldn't pay any more for this, you must be joking!! So I guess you're saying all P38s are the same!? An AC no date is worth the same as an AC41? or a standard "byf44" is worth the same as a police marked "byf44"? Of course not!! It's the rarity that ups the value!

All items, no matter what you collect, value is determined by two things: condition, and rarity! This carbine is much rarer than a standard Inland. That's just the plain truth. Look at the numbers. Now, I'm not saying it's worth $1million or anything, but probably is worth at least 10-20% more than a standard carbine.

I don't believe it's anal retentive at all. It's called attention to detail. Anal retentive would be saying that the hand stamped "1" should be .025in to the left of the "M" and .000237in. above it, and at a 2 degree angle to it. Now that's anal!

Matt

Matt, Thank you (and Ronnie) for the information and clarification. I now understand what the "deal" is with these receivers and that they are a variation instead of an error or flaw. I would suggest that value is not determined by condition and rarity but also desireability as all factored together as well.

I also well understand that collectors seeking every variation regardless of how slight in a particular type of arm or any item will when required pay a good deal more money to obtain it.

[Ronnie Fry]

Be Careful!!!!

I would like to point out--- on hand stamped M1's
As crude and out of alignment as those stamped #'s are, there could be a HUGE problem for any who stumble on them unknowingly. If you come across a carbine stamped "M 2". Unless it is registered, it is very illegal. Even if the full auto parts are long gone, and it's been reconfigured to M 1 type, IT'S STILL CLASSIFIED AS A FULL AUTO WEAPON!!! The other part of this, if someone has ground off the "2", or messed with it in some way to resemble a "1", it's even worse.
I have seen a couple of these ground off "2's" at gun shows lately. For sale by someone who apparantly do not know what the problem is. Owning one of these, unlicensed, is a FELONY!!!

Knowledge is power!!

r