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**phild** · 02-06-2008, 03:44 PM

The other distinction that I have been trying to have acknowledged for 5 or 10 years is this: When we say "untouched" (yes I hate the word) one can distinguish from a factory untouched and a military useage untouched. I collect military weapons and accouterments therefore since I don't collect "factory" as as theme, factory condition means little too me. Original as used in the military condition does however mean a lot too me.

The is no such thing as a SS marked 98k, ordnance scoped sniper, camo painted helment or full insignai set up uniform that is in "factory" untouched condition....I guess that I am strange but those are the type items that interest me the most not the untouched factory ones.

This has nothing to do with condition but rather everything to do with at what level and by who (military or Joe collector) did what to any given item.

**NTZ** · 02-06-2008, 05:06 PM

And if I could find one of these “military useage untouched” I would be a very happy camper.

**Frogprince** · 02-06-2008, 05:27 PM

Semantics obviously is a very significant factor as to what “untouched” means to one person versus another. If “untouched” means brand new from the factory straight to your hands like a contemporary S&W - that is one thing. However, I don’t think that “Original finish with correct parts” is the best that can be found. The rifle I mentioned would have to be an exception to that statement because it NEVER was refinished or had a part replaced. It doesn't even show the signs of wear/firing except possibly proof rounds. How do you wear out or break parts with a rifle that has only been tested?

I don’t really specialize in “as factory new” condition weapons myself. And while most of my Third Reich weapons and accouterments are generally in better condition, they show obvious signs of use. However, I do have some items which look like they were taken from storerooms or possibly even from the factories where they were made. Showing no evidence of use in the field with perhaps very minimal (if any) traces of storage.

But if “untouched” means coming straight from the factory to my hands (versus not having been fooled around with by somebody). Then under that criteria I may to console myself with currently manufactured contemporary guns - and then have to leave them in the boxes - but how much fun is that?? FP

**bigschuss** · 02-08-2008, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by RylanBrissette View Post

Hey guys,

This is my M1 Garand, I have had it for a couple years now and I would to know some info about it if possible. I was told the "drawing numbers" marked on parts can give additional info to whether it is a parts guns or if it is a military re-build. I think it could be a danish lend lease type gun because of a sticker on the inside of the stock. Also, on the butt end of the stock there is the serial number marked into the bottom, is this often seen on Garands?

The serial number is 434768 meaning it was made January '42, that is about all I know. Here is some technical data:

Barrel: S-A-4-50
Receiver: REP 21A D 28291-14 SA

Trigger Housing: D28290-12-SA
Hammer: C46008-3 SA

Safety and I think the bullet guide were both marked PB for P. Beretta. If anyone can tell me more info about this M1 that would be appreciated.

Hello Rylan. Back to your rifle.

It's definitely a Danish weapon that is most likely a CMP return. And it has been absolutely re-built, re-worked, overhauled, and refinished....whether at the arsenal level or at the local level.

The barrel doesn't mach the receiver. That's obvious. The hammer and trigger housing aren't correct for the receiver either. The hammer should be a 2 SA and the trigger housing a 5 SA. The rear site looks post-war. The trigger guard could be correct based on just the pics.

What about the other parts? What are the numbers on the bolt and op rod. Is the stock original walnut? Are there any cartouches on the stock?

Those numbers in the stock are not something you will find normally in an "untouched" rifle. Again, these were probably added at the armory level, probably by the Danes.

It's a nice rifle. How does it shoot?

Blair

**Frogprince** · 02-08-2008, 12:54 PM

Rylan, My first Garand was a really nice Korean War vintage U.S arsenal rebuilt rifle which I still have. It has never bothered me that it is rework because (as was mentioned) most Garands have been overhauled or updated at one time or another and the rebuilding was first class.

While It’s always nice to look at something first hand from what I’ve seen the rifle is ex-Danish Army issue. After WW II the Danes got roughly 70,000 Garands via U.S. military aid. Italy got almost 250,000 Garands, and ended up having even more made by Beretta. At some point Denmark sent a number of its rifles to Beretta to be converted to 7.62 NATO. And while as I recall there are some interchangeability problems with some Beretta parts I don’t think that the safety and bullet guide were affected. And Italy may also have sold or given some Garands to Denmark - all of which explains why Beretta parts are seen on Danish Garands.

The rifle has served honorably at least two nations, appears to be in very decent condition, and should be a good shooter. Enjoy!!

Regards, FP

PS: Typo correction. Make that “I may have to console myself with currently manufactured contemporary guns.”

**CAFI** · 02-09-2008, 03:15 AM

It compliments is much beautiful one…. of it I with matriculation 722.000 have one also… all correcting with the reviews springfield…

**Rylan** · 02-10-2008, 06:23 AM

Thanks for the comments everyone, Blair: the gun shoots pretty good. I haven't really done any long range accuracy shooting yet, but I plan to. I have bump fired this garand before, it goes pretty good

To answer you question, the bolt is: D28287-I26A next line down: S-B70

The op rod is: D35382 SA

Is the stock original walnut? Are there any cartouches on the stock?

I'm not sure if it is walnut or not, kinda looks like it I guess... not too sure though. Not sure what you mean by "cartouches", there are no other markings on the stock though.

And as far as "decent condition"... well the mechanical parts on the inside are pretty good, but the stock and front sights are in rough shape. Gouges and dents cracks etc. are present in the stock. The front sight looks like it was scraped agaist a rock or something. I prefer the term "character"

she is in a bit rough of shape but I love her just the same, a real fun rifle

**bigschuss** · 02-10-2008, 10:05 PM

Hi Rylan. Bump fire? Is that when you put your thumb through the trigger guard and grab onto a belt loop or something, and then pull forward on the rifle so it fires almost like an automatic? I've only seen that done. I've never tried it myself.

My brother's M1 is a sweet competition shooter that he had completely tricked out, to include a wicked sensitive NM trigger job. Now and then, when he's beginning to slack off a little and pay less attention to his marksmanship, he'll bump fire 2 or 3 rounds.

Cartouches are stamps you might find in the wood of your rifle that were done by the manufacturer. They are found on the left hand side of the rifle just under the rear sight area. For example, my Springfield Armory 3.3 million has a S.A./N.F.R. cartouche. The S.A. was for Sprinfield Armory. The NFR is the initials of the officer in charge of production at that time. Stocks that still have these stamps are highly sought after by collectors, and like everything else, are highly faked.

Your op rod, based on the number and the references I have, was a type used on armory rebuilt rifles from 1946 to 1949.

Your bolt sounds interesting! Again, based on my reference material, that bolt of yours may be a rare kitty! There's a chance it was used on EARLY Garands from serial number 0-15,000. If so, that could be worth some money.

Two questions.
1) Does it have "SA" stamped anywhere on it after any of the numbers?
2) Is there any kind of a little hole on the underneath of the bolt?

Besides that, it sounds like a pretty classic M1 Garand mixmaster. I just got back from the range today with my 3.3 million, and man what a day! If you can find a shooting club with a nice 300 meter range, you'll be amazed at how easy it is to hit a pie plate all day long with your rifle. My brother and I have a little competition when we go. We play a big boy's version of HORSE, only it's with Garands, not basketballs.

Sorry for the long winded post. Check that bolt! It could be worth some money to you. If you need help with it let me know. Maybe there's an expert out there who knows a little more about it.

Blair

**Rylan** · 02-10-2008, 11:03 PM

Hello Blair,

Yes, you have the right idea of bump-firing. Not really practical with a .30-06, but a good, fun, fast way to blow through money

Your brothers M1 sounds like a nice one! One day I plan to build one from the ground up, use a black synthetic stock, and a T37 muzzle flash hider. To me that just sounds like a very unique, fun garand.

Here I was thinking the bolt is not even worth mentioning what the numbers were on it. That is very cool news you have brought to my attention. To answer your questions:

Two questions.
1) Does it have "SA" stamped anywhere on it after any of the numbers?
2) Is there any kind of a little hole on the underneath of the bolt?

1) No, I do not see an SA stamp anywhere after the numbers. There is a stange grind mark present below those number though, I don't know what or why should grounded down that spot.

EDITED IN: Blair, what I thought was an "8A" is actually an "SA". I have just confirmed this.

2) Yes I do see a little hole, I made an arrow pointing it in one of the photos... is this what you were refering to?

Let me know what your thoughts are on this bolt, that would be very cool if it was apart of the original 15,000 made. If it is one of the 15,000 made, how much do you figure it is worth? $150... more less??

Thanks for all the help, I look foward to hearing what you have to say about it.

Cheers,
Rylan

**bigschuss** · 02-11-2008, 09:57 AM

Hi Rylan.

Yes, I tried to do that bump fire thing with my .22. It didn't work. I then realized that you need something with enough kick so that the recoil will reset the trigger.

Yes, you nailed it. The bolt is indeed marked SA which makes it a 12 SA bolt, which was one of the most common bolts used on most WWII era SA Garands.

If it had been the early one, that thing could have been worth at least $150.

I'll post a few pics of me and my bro at the range to get you pumped. We are both shooting WWII era Garands that he and I restored back to around 95% original for the receiver. Mine is a SA 3.3 million. I was even able to find a Jan. 45 barrel for it that was in pristine condition. At 300 meters, it is no problem to hit a pie plate constantly. At our range, there is also an 8 inch think steel half silhouette. With basic marksmanship skills, it is almost impossible to miss that thing. It goes off like a gunshot when you hit it.

Being a history buff, it really gives me a better understanding of how little hope the boys who landed on Omaha beach had trying to cross 300 to 500 meters of beach. 300 meters sounds far. But for a 30-06 or an 8mm. it really is like shooting ducks in a barrel.

Have fun with that Garand, Rylan. And shoot it until it smokes!

Best,
Blair

**bigschuss** · 02-11-2008, 10:01 AM

It took me 4 or 5 attempts to get this pic. I wanted a pic with the spent shell AND the clip in the air. But I think that the way the weapon cycles, the casing is ejected sooner and faster than the clip. So this might be impossible.

**Frogprince** · 02-12-2008, 11:17 PM

Mostly Garands seem to go full auto for two reasons. The first is a worn sear. The second is if one of the early full round firing pins is in place and it slam fires. To correct that problem the half round firing pin was developed. For a related, but not exactly the same reason, the later 30 ’06 versions of the FN 1949 (another very nice shooter in 30 ’06) got a two piece firing pin. The Polytech AK47’s a spring loaded firing pin. And as I recall some of the SKS’s having a modified firing pin as well. FP

**Rylan** · 02-13-2008, 01:42 AM

Originally posted by Frogprince View Post

Mostly Garands seem to go full auto for two reasons. The first is a worn sear. The second is if one of the early full round firing pins is in place and it slam fires. To correct that problem the half round firing pin was developed. For a related, but not exactly the same reason, the later 30 ’06 versions of the FN 1949 (another very nice shooter in 30 ’06) got a two piece firing pin. The Polytech AK47’s a spring loaded firing pin. And as I recall some of the SKS’s having a modified firing pin as well. FP

Well we are refering to bump-firing, just a fun waste of ammo. Pretty well works for semi auto gun, as long as there is a little recoil

Blairs story of bumpfiring a .22 is kinda funny. However there is a way to do it, if you put an elastic band around the back of the trigger and the front of a mag and you can get bursts.

I have heard a lot about garands going full auto, I even heard sometimes putting oil on the sear is enough to get a couple round bursts. Or you could just buy an extra trigger housing and file off the sear and keep the extra trigger group handy to avoid legal issues. (I read somewhere, that US GI's did this sometimes... although I doubt many did, as it is far from practical) Of course this may be considered grey in the legal area so do not try it, but it isn't like this is something people didn't know. The CMP is notorious for selling garands that go full auto, they don't test them out so sometimes you get one with worn parts... lol it must turn heads at the range

And 8 rounds isn't quite enough to make a light support machine gun, so I don't think the ATF cares. I still wouldn't do it though, I don't think it is good for the gun, too much wear on the parts. And the hammer just keeps smacking the back, again NOT a good idea! If you do get a full auto garand from the CMP, buy a near trigger and sear group, and maybe a new hammer and replace them. Thus fixing the problem.

I believe you can convert M1 Garands to M14 type guns, get a gun smith to cut a mag well for like BAR mags?? Then get rid of the follower and follower arm. The catch assembly might need a little work, I will probably make one eventually, I have to look into my nation's gun laws though.

Edited in: After looking over my garand this isn't as easy as I thought it would be, but is for sure do able.

**Rylan** · 02-13-2008, 02:18 AM

Here is an example:

Attached Files

aaagarand.gif (8.5 KB, 67 views)

**Frogprince** · 02-13-2008, 03:39 PM

Rylan, Yes it can be done. There was a (re) manufacturer in Southern California a long time back who built M 1 Garands in 308 NATO into what (as I recall) was called an M11(?) using M14 magazines. The barrel was set back and rechambered and a number of other modifications were made. A fair number of guns were built and every once in a while you used to see one of them for sale. (These are not to be confused with either the Beretta BM 59 or 62).

But as a practical matter while its fun to occasionally cut loose with a lot of lead going downrange - it’s not really very practical. Shooting the M 1’s very close cousin the M-14 in full auto - locked down with a sand bagged bipod - it still causes the weapon to jump around too much for anything except close work. Although with good trigger control and very short bursts it does extend your effective range. FP

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