Band of Brother Luger

[Alan Smith]

Phil,

Those are some interesting observations you have made. I agree - the rule of "Buy the Item, Not the Story" is often misused, as everyone darn sure seems to want to know the "story" behind the items they purchase.

I think the intended meaning of this adage is that you need to be happy with the item standing on its own, with the story being merely a nice "plus" to add to the item. What I think gets to be a problem is when an otherwise common item (i.e. a P.08) is expected to command a very high price due solely to the story. In that situation, the story must be ironclad.

Mr. Winters is still alive, so I wonder if anyone had raised this issue with him? Possibly he would be able to add a bit more to the documentation for this P.08?

If I were to purchase this P.08, I would want a videotape of Mr. Winters examining the gun, positively identifying it, and providing any recollections he may have re: his acquisition of the item.

[phild]

Phil,

Those are some interesting observations you have made. I agree - the rule of "Buy the Item, Not the Story" is often misused, as everyone darn sure seems to want to know the "story" behind the items they purchase.

I think the intended meaning of this adage is that you need to be happy with the item standing on its own, with the story being merely a nice "plus" to add to the item. What I think gets to be a problem is when an otherwise common item (i.e. a P.08) is expected to command a very high price due solely to the story. In that situation, the story must be ironclad.

Mr. Winters is still alive, so I wonder if anyone had raised this issue with him? Possibly he would be able to add a bit more to the documentation for this P.08?

If I were to purchase this P.08, I would want a videotape of Mr. Winters examining the gun, positively identifying it, and providing any recollections he may have re: his acquisition of the item.

Alan, Yes Winter's personal endorsement of the item(s) would be huge. I regret to say that I believe that he has passed away within the last year or so....as I saw a press release on it. I have a lot of discussions with collectors about the topic of provonance and history of these items (well documented and otherwise) I agree that the better suported stories are the only ones that should impact price and even then only sometimes.

I raised my points because for some of us (fewer everyday I think) the main reason we collect firearms and military items is that many of them were actually in the hands or on the backs of people who were directly involved in major historical events. I will never apoligize for collecting and valuing shop worn guns and militaria!

[Von Hoth]

well, just as I mentioned even before I found out that the Vet in question did indeed take numerous souvenirs, (more than one pistol)

that's bad to me because It proves my point about how they vets traded and shared, switched, and god knows what else (winning a card game in England waiting for transport might have been the "capture" of the weapon)

that really makes the gun less meaningful to me. If he brought several guns home, that lessens the chance that he directly captured it while in enemy territory.


I'm now starting to agree with you fellows who says it's not worth 15,000. (now that I read the simpsons ltd description which says in their own words he had several pistols)

[phild]

Worthwhile topic but easily opens a can of worms for many collectors. Back 30 to 35 years ago myself and most other collectors that I knew could really care less if an item was obtained direct from a vet or had the so-called "capture papers' with it. I would not pay a dime more for the papers nor ask for them and it was generally considered bad manners and showed a lack of class (two things that most people lack these days!) to bring up pointed questions to a vet about his war experience...

Vets were our fathers, school teachers, coaches and neighbors etc....now there seems to be the "cult of the vet" and everything with a darn enemy material document automatically means that it was taken in hand to hand combat with an LAH soldier.....in fact in my learned experience about 90% of everything brought back was picked up on battle fields, supply dumps, taken from POWs, most was simply picked up after the surrender or traded and won in card games......

Today everyone is a cynic and one upsmanship and money seem to drive the hobby. I get real tired of people who think that every pistol has to be near mint or mint, be a complete all matched rig with same year dated holster and a "capture document" to be a worthy of the "serious" "purist" collector! What a load!

[Alan Smith]

Phil,

You are on the money re: older generations of collectors not giving a darn about where a vet acquired the relic item in question. I'm only 36 years old but have been collecting since I was about 13 years old.

For me, it was only sort of a self-awakening about 15 years ago that caused me to start documenting the details of vet pick-up items. Prior to that time, I had followed in the footsteps of my older generation mentors who did not document anything, showed no interest in less-than-mint condition items, did not care for most German/Japanese machineguns b/c of the stamped metal and/or rough machined parts, and had no interest in unit markings on weapons.

This narrow minded outlook cost me big time: I passed up numerous bargains, including a MP44 for $4,500 in 1998. I had the money, but passed because of my mentors having prejudiced me against such "sheet metal junk" guns. The same gun is now around $15K to $18K.

One day I just sort of woke up and thought to myself - "hey, this background history is interesting, I ought to be documenting it". I then began taking photos of the vets with their items, writing down the vet's service history, etc. when I acquired items. Then, looking around, I started to notice that other collectors were engaging in the same sort of history documentation.

Like you say, documenting items has now developed into a sort of "Cult of the Vet" that I'm not quite sure I am confortable with (as not all vets are "hereos" to me - a very few have been real a**holes - but b/c they are all human beings, I guess a few bad apples are to be expected). By and large most vets that I acquire things from have become my friends and mentors in life.

On the vet "captured" items - you are correct in that VERY few items are true combat captures. Most stuff was picked up after the battle by troops who had not fought in that battle. With WWII items, a lot of stuff was not picked up until at or near war's end when the big surrender piles came into being. I've got one P.08 that was captured from an enemy soldier, but only b/c he wanted to surrender near war's end and sought out my vet friend (who was an ordinance mechanic) as someone to surrender to. Not much combat involved in that capture.

[phild]

Alan, I'm not trying to say that I set any kind of standard and I'm not really trying to judge anyone as to what importance they weigh a give criteria. I am advocating just what you have apparently done for yourself and that find your own criteria as to what is important and not draft behind the heard of wildabeast.

I only advise collectors to question these meaningless slogans that we get bombarded with from dealers and so many other collectors..collector grade, textbook, untouched, direct vet, to name a few.

[MauserKar98k]

...I regret to say that I believe that he has passed away within the last year or so....as I saw a press release on it...

I am happy to say that Major Winters is still with us; he just turned 90 this January 21st. BTW, there is a petition online to try to get him the Congressional Medal of Honor for his exemplary service during the Second World War. Yes, I have signed it. Winters is a true American hero.

[Matt Weber]

Phil and Alan both make good points, and I must say I do agree with you guys.

Here are my thoughts on the documentation of items. First off, yes, in the past nobody cared about capture papers or documentation at all. So why do we now? The answer is, because all of the WWII vets are dying off literrally every day! If we don't document it today, they will be gone tommorow. Alan idea of taking a photo of the vet with the item is brilliant I think. I never even thought of doing that, but will from now on!

I still believe in my motto, "buy the item, not the story." However, I must admit, that I do have several guns in my collection that have vets documentation with them. So, would I pay more for a documented item? Probably not, but it's still nice to have. I guess it "enhances" the item, more than it raises it's value.

Two of my favorites documented items, are both P38s. One is an AC41, with one matching mag, wich was captured in 1944 in Italy by Ssgt Frank Eastin, of Co B 645th TD Bn. He was the commander of an M10 tank destroyer!
The other one is an "AC43" stack, which was taken off a surrending German NCO, in April 1945.
I have one other "AC43" inline P38, that I'm waiting for documentation. The vet was a paratrooper in the 82nd.

Matt

[Alan Smith]

I'd love to speak with Mr. Winters about the P.08 in question. If he could positively ID it, chances are (IMO) pretty good that he would laugh and say something along the lines of "yeah, I traded a guy a pack of cigarettes for it, while I was waiting to get shipped home at war's end".

I have not seen the documentation that accompanies this P.08. My understanding is that the documentation is very limited, and states nothing more than that this P.08 "is something that Mr. Winters brought home from WWII as a souvenir." Thus, it is left up to the purchaser to daydream about the gun having originated as a combat capture from some of the fast-paced action depicted in HBO's "Band of Brothers" series.

[Bob Coleman]

Major Winters Is Indeed Alive And Well. I Have A Friend Who Has Visited Major Winters On Numerous Occasions. In Fact, He Was Able To Obtain For Me A Personally Autographed Photograph Of Major Winters, Which Has Been Framed Along With A 101st Patch And Holds A Place Of Honor In My Collection Room. I Will Ask My Friend About These Items When I See Him At The Sos.

[MikeP]

I recently took a pic of a vet holding a Japanese swordwith a bullet nick in the blade.

I am a combat vet. Most of my preferred associates are combat vets.
My father was 506 PIR and most of his associates were combat vets.
Same-same both grandfathers in WW1.

I began collecting in the 50s when vets were where you got the stuff. Associated with vets all my life.
I have no understanding or tolerance of anybody who fails to serve their time.

Here is a pure fact. LOTS of vet stories are pure BS.
Many from fading memories, many from simple embellishnent, or outright lies.
A lot of guys wanted to impress somebody, so made up some personal glory.
I can't say how many times I have heard similar stories regarding situations or events that are not supported by history or fact.
An old fellow was telling me all about "Tiger Royals" the other day.
He was a mortarman, saw combat, but never saw a Tiger in person.
Friend of mine has a German helmet from his uncle-"German jumped in a hole with him, he kilt him and took his whole dang uniform!"
You younger guys will be amazed over time how your memory begins to waver.
I agree it is a good idea to document things, just take the stories for what they are. Sometimes war stories are simply warstories. Sometimes they are gospel. You will NEVER know for sure,
My views come from my personal experiences and a lifetime of personal assciation with veterans of all kinds.

[Matt Weber]

Mike,

Very well put! I agree. I think just about every GI tanker I've ever talked to has told me a story about a "Tiger" tank. I'm sorry but the Germans just didn't have that many of them. And if a US tanker did come up against a King Tiger, they would most likely not be alive to tell me the story about it.

It's just like fighter pilots telling me that they shot down a top German ace! or all mustang pilots seem to have shot down an Me262!

It's my experiance talking with veterans, that it seems that the vets that were truely in some of the worst fighting, don't ever want to talk about it.
Back in High School, myself and all my friends fathers were all Vietnam veterans. There were 4 of us, and our dads were in all 4 different brances. For school we decided to do an interview with each of our dads to show the war from all 4 different branches.
Well the first 3 dads all told fun stories, and stories of hot sticky days, rain that came in sideways, and bugs! more bugs that you could believe!

Then we got to my friend Rob's dad. His dad was in the Army and served on a forward firebase. When we asked him for an interview, he seemed ok to do it. He started out fine, then we asked him if he had any photos from the war? He went into the attic and pulled out this box. It had been duct taped since 1969!!! He opened it, and once the photos started coming out, he broke down. He was shaking, and crying, and some of the photos were very graphic. There were dead bodies, and body parts. A photo of a US helocopter getting shot down. Dead VC that looked to be about 14 years old with home made grenades strapped across thier chest. He said these were sappers that got through the wire at night, and tried to blow up a bunker. He also told us that once he was driving a jeep just outside the wire, and his buddy sitting next to him was shot right in the head, and he fell on his lap!
After the interview, he told us that was the first time he had ever talked to anyone about the war!! and the first time he had looked at those photos! Some vets just don't want to talk about it, and you have to respect that. I think Rob's dad was glad to finally get 20 years of bad memories out. I always liked Rob's dad, but after that day, I had an even higher level of respect for him, and what he went through.


Matt