Russian anti tank rifle question,

[Ostfries]

I know that the Germans made use of the capered Russian anti tank rifles Panzerbüchse 783(r) and 784(r) but did they use them in great numbers and in which period of the war?, where they considered obsolete after time or did they make use of them until the end of the war?, last question is which branch used them?, Heer, SS, Luftwaffe or all?, thanks in advance.

[Adrian Stevenson]

Hi, I am not sure how widespread these Anti tank rifles were used in German service?

I have never seen any pics of them in German use, but that does not mean that much I think one of the problems is that the Germans gave a Model number to almost all enemy weapons and sometimes it can give an impression that they were more widely used than perhaps they were in practise?

Their use as an Anti tank rifle was becoming increasingly obsolete as the war progressed, even in Russian service. The ammo supply problem might also restrict use as well in captured service?

Sorry that I cannot really help much. So I will just add a pic of my PTRS. A PTRD is top of my wanted list for this year

Cheers, Ade.

[Ostfries]

period picture,

Thanks for your reply Adrian, would love to know how widely they where used by the Germans and by who? (SS, Heer or Luftwaffe), period picture would also be very welcome, one of these would look great with a mannequin.

[Gary Cain]

I had an opportunity to talk with a Waffenmeister from the 10th motorised Division about a lot of different ordnance and firearm related subjects and When I asked about the various ATR's he said they were relegated to second line troops doing garrison duty around railheads and the like. He stated that even the Russian guns (which in general were much more powerful than the German weapons) were useless against the vast majority of Russian tanks. They were moderately useful against the armored cars and soft skinned vehicles but other than that he figured they were useless against teh Russian armor. Ammo he said wasn't that big of a deal. They usually had large quantities of captured ammo during the first year of the fight.


Gary

[Ostfries]

western front,

I had an opportunity to talk with a Waffenmeister from the 10th motorised Division about a lot of different ordnance and firearm related subjects and When I asked about the various ATR's he said they were relegated to second line troops doing garrison duty around railheads and the like. He stated that even the Russian guns (which in general were much more powerful than the German weapons) were useless against the vast majority of Russian tanks. They were moderately useful against the armored cars and soft skinned vehicles but other than that he figured they were useless against teh Russian armor. Ammo he said wasn't that big of a deal. They usually had large quantities of captured ammo during the first year of the fight.


Gary

Thanks for this interesting additional information Gary, could you tell me if these where also used on the western front?, it seems, regarding your story, that these rifles could have more use against British and American (soft) armour then against the Russians?.

[kiwicollector]

Also keep in mind that as soon as the Germans had the Panzerfaust which was cheap and easy to produce plus very effective the captured anti-tank rifles would have been worthless.

[Ostfries]

obsolete,

Also keep in mind that as soon as the Germans had the Panzerfaust which was cheap and easy to produce plus very effective the captured anti-tank rifles would have been worthless.

Thanks for your reply, would that mean that they “thrown” anti tank rifles with there ammunition like this types away after the availability of the panzerfaust?.

[Gary Cain]

Hello again,

No I have never had the opportunity to talk to a Waffenmeister who was on the Western Front. All of his experience was in the east.


Cheers
Gary

Thanks for this interesting additional information Gary, could you tell me if these where also used on the western front?, it seems, regarding your story, that these rifles could have more use against British and American (soft) armour then against the Russians?.

[pitts duncan]

world war two tank rifles

anti tank rifles were ww1 stuff. The 13mm T-Gewehr rifle was like a giant k98 on steroids. bolt action made by mauser werke at obendorf made them and a crew of two used them. 39 pound weight. and 132 shells. 10 rounds used to kill a tank and the recoil was so bad even with two men it was time to go home after 20 shots. boiler plate turned into real armor plate and the rifles became pretty much obsolete. even while the plans were in the works for a five shot magazine fed rifle in same caliber.15800 pieces produced before ww1 ended in the old single shot style.some were sold to the spanish in civil war 1932 1933. 805 grain bullet at 2440 fps few survivors today .there is an excellent article in feb 9,2007 gun digest magazine.overall length of gun looks to be about 5 feet. its HUGE. by end of ww1 tank armor and sloped surfaces outpaced guns effectiveness. still a good gun to kill and thoroughly clean a deer or water buffalo with one shot.

[Ostfries]

obsolete in WWI?,

anti tank rifles were ww1 stuff. The 13mm T-Gewehr rifle was like a giant k98 on steroids. bolt action made by mauser werke at obendorf made them and a crew of two used them. 39 pound weight. and 132 shells. 10 rounds used to kill a tank and the recoil was so bad even with two men it was time to go home after 20 shots. boiler plate turned into real armor plate and the rifles became pretty much obsolete. even while the plans were in the works for a five shot magazine fed rifle in same caliber.15800 pieces produced before ww1 ended in the old single shot style.some were sold to the spanish in civil war 1932 1933. 805 grain bullet at 2440 fps few survivors today .there is an excellent article in feb 9,2007 gun digest magazine.overall length of gun looks to be about 5 feet. its HUGE. by end of ww1 tank armor and sloped surfaces outpaced guns effectiveness. still a good gun to kill and thoroughly clean a deer or water buffalo with one shot.

Hello, thanks for the explanation, but the Russian WWII PTRS and PTRD 14,5 mm anti tank rifles are discussed here, why would they still produce them in 1941 while you are stating that anti tank rifles where already obsolete in WWI?.

[kiwicollector]

Hello, thanks for the explanation, but the Russian WWII PTRS and PTRD 14,5 mm anti tank rifles are discussed here, why would they still produce them in 1941 while you are stating that anti tank rifles where already obsolete in WWI?.

Because the Russians had no other man portable alternative. That said, in 1941-42 the PTRS and PTRD were still an effective rifle against the more common tanks the Germans fielded. Plus the PTRD was cheap to manufacture and the 14.5mm was one of the most powerful rounds of its type.

What is interesting is that the Russians persisted in manufacturing these rifles right up until the end of the war. Even though they had been supplied Lend-Lease bazookas and would have captured thousands of Panzerfausts, they didn't start their own production of until after the war.

It should also be said that even though the Boys anti-tank rifle was considered obsolete during the invasion of France it was used successfully in the Finnish Winter war against the Russians and the Pacific until late in the war.

[Ostfries]

additional information,

I found some additional information regarding captured anti tank rifles in the Angolia book Uniforms and Traditions who confirms some of the given statements in this thread. It states that captured anti tank rifles were also utilized, which included the 7,92mm Polish wz.35(German designation Pz.B.35(p)), the Russian 14,5mm PTRD-41 (German designation Pz.B.783(r)), and others of English, Italian and Dutch (I didn’t know that the Dutch had a own produced anti tank rifle?) origin. All of the above saw very limited service and were ultimately turned over to Italian and other German allied armies.

[C.O.Sargent]

The PTRD was used well into the Korean war as a sniper weapon, weather it was used in Africa and Vietnam in the same way I do not know.