SS use of G24(t) at Auschwitz?

[Alan Smith]

Guys,

Check out the link re: Auschwitz photos that is currently posted under the "Living History" section. If you go to the link, scroll down to the bottom and you will see a link to "All Photos from Karl Hocker's Auschwitz Album". Click on this link and go to photo #22 re: shooting practice by SS guards at Auschwitz.

Take a close look at the rifle leaning up against the closest shooting table. To me it looks like a G24(t) rifle, in that it appears to have a straight bolt and the upper handguard appears to extend back between the receiver ring and the rear sight (i.e. the handguard covers up that portion of the barrel between the receiver ring and the rear sight).

I've always wondered what weapons the SS used at these camps but never seen photographic documentation before. Sure looks like a G24(t) rifle to me, in use at Auschwitz c. 1944 when the photos were taken.

[phild]

Yes it does look like a VZ24 as siezed by the Germans in 1938. The TK Div. received large quantities of these rifles and used them both in the camps and in the front lines. About 10 or 11 other German divisions were completly outfitted with these as well.

I have seen a lot of these captured CZ rifles and Polish rifles in photos being used by Police combat Bns as well.

I have seen many different rifles being carried by camp guard personnel to include G98s (both with original and modified rear sights) M95 Mannlicher rifles, and these VZ 24 types as well. I have also seen photos of units that had a mix of several different types of rifles....and some of these photos were fairly early war not volkstrum units.

[Craig W.C. Brown]

What's the volkstrum? Some kind of musical group? It's Volkssturm.

[phild]

What's the volkstrum? Some kind of musical group? It's Volkssturm.

Thanks for clearing that up. Dyslexia is a mad bad problem to live with. Volkssturm is of course what I intended to write.

[sszza2]

Hopefully the observation of a VZ24 or G24t in the hands of the SS will not drive the imbeciles and carny sellers of the hobby into believing that all such rifles made it into the hands of the SS. There is much photogrphic evidence to support wide distribution throughout the Wehrmacht.

[Alan Smith]

SSZZA2,

Good observation - I hope I did not "stir the pot" to create any confusion or misinformation down the road. Also, as was posted above - this rifle could be a G24(t) or an original VZ24.

Your are correct - way too many of both types of rifles were issued to thousands upon thousands of common soldiers for any reasonable person to try to attribute G24(t)'s or VZ24's as being "Concentration Camp Guard" weapons.

BTW: Does anyone know of any person or museum that has a firearm that is documented as having been issued/used at a concentration camp? Didn't Bill Grist have a rifle that was taken by a U.S. GI from a KZ camp?

[phild]

SSZZA2,

Good observation - I hope I did not "stir the pot" to create any confusion or misinformation down the road. Also, as was posted above - this rifle could be a G24(t) or an original VZ24.

Your are correct - way too many of both types of rifles were issued to thousands upon thousands of common soldiers for any reasonable person to try to attribute G24(t)'s or VZ24's as being "Concentration Camp Guard" weapons.

BTW: Does anyone know of any person or museum that has a firearm that is documented as having been issued/used at a concentration camp? Didn't Bill Grist have a rifle that was taken by a U.S. GI from a KZ camp?

I think that Bill's rifle was a M95 carbine. I have seen the M95 long rifle in several KZ photos...

As I stated in my first post, the Germans reported that either 10 or 11 divisions (I don't remember which number because of failing memory not dyslexia) of Heer troops were equiped with CZ arms after the occupation of CZ....The TK VB certainly received a lot of CZ arms as well but was by no means using them to the exclusion of all others.


Obviously the general trend was that as more and more new (and standard pattern) arms made it into the "system", main line units were upgraded and the older arms got passed on to the various non primary combat formations.

[mkb42h]

i have some photos of a friends father in the 297th inf division,circa 1940, all are carrying 24(t)s or 24s

[Kapt. Krabs]

Hopefully the observation of a VZ24 or G24t in the hands of the SS will not drive the imbeciles and carny sellers of the hobby into believing that all such rifles made it into the hands of the SS. There is much photogrphic evidence to support wide distribution throughout the Wehrmacht.

Indeed. Many don't realize that "G.24(t)" is simply the official German nomenclature for the "rifle model 24, Czechoslovakia" which encompasses everything from a straight up Czech Vz.24, Vz.24 modified, to a siderail marked G.24(t). So many Vz.24s were used and modified by the German armed forces, primarily Heer, that I'd go so far as to say that a straight up Czech military Vz.24 is rarer than one with German modifications. The Vz.24 or "G.24(t)" is as much "SS" as a Kar.98k or P.38. Mr. B, please note that we are witnessing a slow bizarro renaissance where things are what some collectors, hucksters, and karnies wish them to be unless you can prove they aren't.

[AndyB]

One should be noted, the G24(t) on siderail rifles are new made for Wehrmacht and not reworks, normal czechoslovak rifles Vz.24 captured in 1939 were not marked this way. best regards,Andy

[DennyB]

At Dachau there is a very clear photo of a camp guard with a M-95 Steyr rifle (not carbine) ay least in 1992 there was.

[Frogprince]

The G.24(t) had a blued bolt. As do German reworks. The Czech Vz24 has a bright bolt and there are pictures showing SS soldiers with bright bolt Vz24’s and the bright finished handle Vz24 bayonets.

That said - there are also pictures showing other types of German soldiers with the Vz24. FP

[sszza2]

Indeed. Many don't realize that "G.24(t)" is simply the official German nomenclature for the "rifle model 24, Czechoslovakia" which encompasses everything from a straight up Czech Vz.24, Vz.24 modified, to a siderail marked G.24(t). So many Vz.24s were used and modified by the German armed forces, primarily Heer, that I'd go so far as to say that a straight up Czech military Vz.24 is rarer than one with German modifications. The Vz.24 or "G.24(t)" is as much "SS" as a Kar.98k or P.38. Mr. B, please note that we are witnessing a slow bizarro renaissance where things are what some collectors, hucksters, and karnies wish them to be unless you can prove they aren't.

So very true! Can someone tell me of another hobby or business where fraud is allowed to exist and fraudsters prosper to this degree? Just curious.

[csaeod]

SS rifles

Very interesting chat. What is the rifle which Karl Hoecker is using in the photo?

[ddd727]

I have a VZ 24 with a bright bolt that was early manufacture under occupation. Its Wa 607 code on stock, reciever, bolt ect. and all matching. Its not marked as a g-24t, but as a Vz-24 with an a block s/n 17XX on gun. The stock has been modified to accept a 98 sling and stock was plugged/repaired to fix original CZ sling attach points. I highly doubt its a fraud, It came from a friends personal collection who got it in the 60's from another collector who imported it some time in the 50's. I do not believe they were faking guns 50-60 years ago for the collector market. I have seen photos of SS troops with the g24t or Vz-24's.