PPS43, M/44 and DUX evolution ... and a question

[r_hufschmied]

For some reason I've never seen a picture of a DUX, not in the multitude of books and publications I've read over the years, not in any museum collection I've seen and not on the net either (which is quite surprising as you normally find anything with a bit of googling). Yesterday I got a picture in the mail on a DUX ... and man is it ugly. The PPS 43 and Finn M/44 clone were no stunners to begin with but the DUX ... it's just ugly. My question is: Is this a DUX-53 or DUX-59? And what is the difference between the two?

[scotty1418]

it almost looks like the russian take on a thompson type weapon. thanks for the pic!

[Zapper]

Eeh... are you quite sure that this is actually an original DUX?

First of all, this firearm resembles the Dux 51, but there are so many things here that doesn't make sense:
The front wooden stock (to my knowledge neither the 51, 53 nor the 59 had such a stock)
The five studs around the mag well (same as above, none of the Dux models had these)
The shape of the front sight (the 51 and 53 had a muzzle break. Mod 59 did not, but it had a larger front sight)
The shape of the "ejector port".
The wire shoulder stock.

I'm just guessing here, but I really only find two options:
Either this is a modern copy made/imported in the 80's by Armscor, Armi-Jager, Jager, Kassnar, Bingham, Mitchell etc.
or
this is actually one of the varieties modified by Sauer and Sohn, Anchutz or Mauser prior to the Bundeswehr testings at Meppin ( I think this happened in 1955?).

Just my 2c....

[Andy Harris]

That's got to be the UGLIEST submachine gun I've ever seen!!!!!!!!!!
Interesting, though. Thanks for posting.

[r_hufschmied]

Eeh... are you quite sure that this is actually an original DUX?

No, I've never seen one so I don't know. Hence my question.

... or this is actually one of the varieties modified by Sauer and Sohn, Anchutz or Mauser prior to the Bundeswehr testings at Meppin ( I think this happened in 1955?).

Just my 2c....

Prototype could make sense as the S/N on the left side is very low, 127, and the complete absence of other markings (unless they are on top of the receiver).



I would be very grateful if you/someone would post pictures of the DUX-51/53/59 as it would fill an annoying hole in my knowledge.

[Zapper]

I think I have some photos at home, and I'll try to post them early next week.

[Zapper]

I forgot all about this , but here is an image showing the different models:



I hope this is of some help to you.

Zapper

[r_hufschmied]

Thanks!

It explains a lot, as I've probably run across both the DUX51 and 53 before but misidentified them as M44s. The DUX59 is new too me though, I would have remembered that one. The question still is though, what on earth is the abomination I originally posted)

[Zapper]

Hobard wrote in his excellent reference book "Pictorial History of the submachine-gun":
"...The German Border Guard took 100 Dux 53 SMGs in 1954 and when Germany came into NATO, the Bundeswehr examined this design. Specimens were modified by Mauser, Sauer and Sohn, and Anschutz and these modified weapons were tested by the German Army at Meppin. Finally the Anschutz pattern seemed most nearly to meet the official requirement and a development contract was placed with that firm.They evolved several variations ending with the Dux 59".

Seem like there were several different prototypes developed, and this could very well be one of them?. Do you have any idea about the origin of this photo? Private collection or museum?

[r_hufschmied]

I just found out. It's from an expired U.K auction. Advertised as a "German Duxa S.M.G" 1999 new spec deact.

http://www.speedbid.com/lot.cfm?lotID=377045

[peterthompson]

dux smg

hello to all
I have the deact that you are discussing, it is a mix between the 53 and 59 models, if any of you are still interested in this subject please reply and I can give you all the info you need on the gun. I too have searched all my books and it doesnt appear anywhere

[peterthompson]

Dux smg

Hi to all
Just to further the debate on the "ugly gun", I have checked its deactivation certificate and it is numbered 167, it fired at one time 9mm rounds through a
10" barrel. Mine lookes exactly the same as the one you have the picture except for the serial number, mine being 167. Its country of origin is given as Germany and it was sumitted for deactivation by Delta Arms in England on 02/11/99. On the certificate it is referred to as a "Sub Machine Gun - Duxa"
I hope this throws some light on the subject.

[peterthompson]

Hi to all
I have opened a debate regarding the Dux in "US, British and Allied Reenactment" forum, for anyone interested please feel free to add comments


I have been searching the net trying to get info on the German border guards in 1954, up until then they had been using the Dux SMG. So far my reseach has told me that in 1954 as Germany was preparing for Nato, they decided on an improved Dux, there was 100 guns taken from the arsenal and modified by Mauser, Sauer and Sohn and Anschutz. These prototypes were tested at Meppin in 1954 and out of this project a new model of the the Dux evolved. What I have in my collection is what we believe to be one of the prototypes made during the transitional period. I have phoned numerous dealers in Engalnd and none can provide any information on the one I have so I am wondering is there any collectors out there with one of these "odddballs" in their collection. I would also like to point out that although this gun was used by Germany, it was actually made in Spain. In 1944 one of the Finnish M44 designers, Willie Daugs fled to Spain from Germany and turned his M44 design drawings to the Orviedo Arsenal and this was the beginning of the Dux. The version I have does not appear in any books, there is reference to prototypes being made, but to date no one has ever actually seen anything in print. I bought the thing because I was curious as to what it was, I had seen the two versions of the Dux and this did not look like either but Dux was on the certificate so I bought it. When I got home I searched the net to see what I had bought and then I found a discussion on the Wehrmacht Awards Forum between a Norwegian and a Swedish fella. They had a picture of this "oddball" but couldnt decide if it was the Dux or not, I entered the debate by telling them that yes it is a version of the Dux I have it here. Up until I posted my comments on that particular forum, they were using references out of books where it was proving that protypes had in fact been manufactured by Mauser, Sauer and Sohn and Anschutz, but they didnt know if any of these prototypes existed. They agreed with me that the Dux I have is in fact one of the prototypes, but none can find in print or in museums in Germany who actually made my gun or how many was made. What we did decide on was that out of 1000 of the original Dux SMGs 100 were taken out of the arsenal in 1954 to be modified and mine was one of that 100. As you will see by the coloured pics, it is, in my mind a mix between German and American and as the version created by Anschutz was accepted in in 1954 that narrows it down to Mauser or Sohn and Sauer.