Latest find, another P38! "cyq"

[Bill V]

P38

Well Matt: how many P38 do you have, buy the way nice holster i seen one at a show didnt buy it because i never seen a rb # on a holster, now i know. BillV

[Matt Weber]

It all depends on who you ask?
If you ask my wife, she'll say "too many". If you ask me, I'll say, "not enough!" Lets' just say, that I have a few, but need much more! Actually right now, I have filled all of my P38 holsters! and have no spares. So I guess I need to go out and find more holsters first!

Matt

[Jan Balcar]

Besides the "cog" hammer, and sub-contracted magazine, this P38 also has another rare feature. It has a barrel that was produced by a sub-contractor. This barrel was made by "Brunner Waffenwerke, Brunn, in Czech. The letter code "Bh" is for this maker, and can also be found on P38 frames made for Spreewerke as well as barrels, such as this one here.
All parts made by this sub-contractor will still be accepted by Spreewerke, and will be marked "eagle/88". The only maker markings will be the letter code "Bh" (sometimes seen in all capitol letters "BH".) Other sub-contractors that made barrels include "F.N. Browning", and "Bohmische Waffenfabrik, Prag" (marked "fnh"). I think its' cool when you find P38s with sub-contractors' parts on them. Very rare as well.

Matt

Barrel on you picture was made in Grottau in Spreewerk factory. Bh is inspector mark. Barrels from Ceska zbrojovka (Böhmische Waffenfabrik) are marked fnh in lower part. Zbrojovka Brno (Waffenfabrik Brünn) never produces a barrel for P.38.

FN Herstal, Liege, Belgium made Slides, Locking blocks and Frames. No Barrels!

[pmatisen]

Spreewerk

Hi there
Will not say mutch, but first of all the name of the factory is written Spreewerk, not with an e.

It is really a nice pistol you got there. Congratulation.

Another thing; Spreewerk had only one subcontractor producing barrels for them. This was as you say Bõhmische Waffenfabrik code fnh.This factory was located in Strakonice. It has nothing to do with the city Prag.
Spreewerk did not use any barrels from FN in their production.

The only frames that came from a subcontractor and was used in Spreewerk production were frames made by FN (they also got slides from this factory). No other subcontactors delivered frames during the entire production.The letters you see on the barrel we still exactely not can tell wat means, sorry, but they also comes with numbers. So this is no factory code.

Again the factory was not bombed during the war. The closest they came to this was so called "bomb alarms" and sirens. But again no bombs were dropped at Werk Grottau. This place of the Sudetenland was a quiet corner of Europa to the end of the War. And again this was one of the reasons why the factory in Berlin put their production to this place.

The magazine you got came from Erste Nordbõhmische Metallwarenfabrik (code jvd). This factory was located in the town Dolni Poustevna. The main building still stands on the border to Germany. The production of magazines to the P.38 program started in August/September 1943 and deliveries to different producers (Walther and Spreewerk) started in the end of 1943/beginning of 1944. We will find jvd magazines with the WaA mark E/88 (Spreewerk use) and WaA mark E/359 (Walther use). The production at the factory stopped in the beginning of May 1945.
More about Magazines for the P.38, see Magazine Spotters Guide to P.38 Pistols (217 pages). $ 65.00 in the US.

Following production months of 1944 are; Letters and Months
M Jan

N Feb

O Mar

P Apr

R May

S Jun

T jul

U Aug

V Sept

W Okt

X Nov

Y Dec

Regards
Per Mathisen

[jaeger_45056]

Matt did this come from JAG? I think I might have picked up his best friend, no import markings, not rare like yours but still a great find. BYF 43, matching 99% finish, mint bore.

[Matt Weber]

Jan and Per,

I may have jumped the gun on the barrel markings. "BH" is in fact the maker code assigned to "Brunner Waffenwerke, Brunn", however, after futher research I cannot find any evidence that they did produce barrels for the P38, so you two are correct.

However Jan you are incorrect that the "BH" is an inspectors marking. Inspector markings were waffenamt proof markings, not letter codes.

After doing some more research here is what I think about the "bh" markings.
I looked in my copy of the "Liste derFertigungskennzeichen fur Waffen, Munition und Gerat" dated 1944. The Oberkommando des Heeres Waffenamt refers to Spreewerk as "Spreewerk G.m.b.H. Metallwarenfabrik, Berlin-Spandau, Freiheit 4-7". Perhaps this "bH" marking is simply a Spreewerk logo? Since it is part of thier title? What do you guys think? I'm still not exactly sure what the "b.H." stands for though? Perhaps Jan can ask Mr. Kopecky what these initials stand for?
Let us know Jan!
I have seen this marking on barrels as well as on frames, and they are always on Spreewerk pistols!

Also Jan, I was wondering if you could find out any information about these "cog wheel" hammers? Such as who made them? were they made by Spreewerk or a sub-contractor? if so, who was the subcontractor?
Thanks Jan!

Matt

[Jan Balcar]

However Jan you are incorrect that the "BH" is an inspectors marking. Inspector markings were waffenamt proof markings, not letter codes.

Also Jan, I was wondering if you could find out any information about these "cog wheel" hammers? Such as who made them? were they made by Spreewerk or a sub-contractor? if so, who was the subcontractor?
Thanks Jan!

Matt

Hi Matt!

You are not right. WaA (E/88) stamps are "sogenante Amtliche Abnahme" (=Official Acceptance). B with letter a-z and B with number 1 - 99 (Yes Matt, they are many other than Bh...) are inspectors marks. It mean internal Spreewerk Company inspection.

The former Czech Slave workers and Mr. Kopecky too remember nothing about coding! They worked in production department and all the parts were not numbered or marked. All the markings (included cyq, B markings, Asterisks and E/88) on barrels were stamped by Germans. I must explained you, the most of workers know his one production step! Mr Kopecky was Machine Setter in GPL department, he knows almost all about barrel production, but nothing about barrel marking!

I asked several German workers too and they said me the numbering was secret and knowed it by high management only. Open said: No direct evidence for any hypothesis of cyq vs. cvq cause.

The cog hammers are still the same riddle: I am sure they were not produced in Spreewerk, Grottau or in Ceska zbrojovka, Strakonice. It must be one of subcontractors. Till today I found only one unknown subcontractor. It was forgings deliverer, company Melichar & Umrath LTD from Roudnice nad Labem. I am still looking for evidences, but it is a long range run and my Spreewerk friends departs from this life so quickly...

[Matt Weber]

Jan,

Thanks Jan. That is kind of what I suspected, and was afraid of... Another dead end, and no evidence!
I guess we just have to accept the fact that some puzzles may never be solved.
I'm not too concerened about the barrel markings, but I would really like to find out were the "cog" hammers came from? and why they switched to the "cog" hammers? But perhaps this may never be solved either.

Keep up the good work Jan. You are in a much better location to research this stuff that we are. Let us know if you find out any information on the "cog" hammers?!

Matt

[P08]

This is a great thread. Good info and fantastic pictures.


Should an original P38 in as nice condition as this one be kept as a museum piece or is it ok to use it for some casual "hobby-shooting" once in a while?

What typical price level should I expect for a P38 like the one is this thread?

I've been told that the russians took a lot of unused P08 & P38s with them at the end of the war. These guns have come into circulation and are (I've heard) in very fine condition. Has any of you encountered such a pistol? What do they typically cost?

[jaeger_45056]

PO8,
The p38 i posted earlier is an example of these Russian captures. They were disassembled, dip blued and reassembled. Parts were kept matching. They are mostly in good condition, some have a little corrosion under the dip blue because the Russians did not buff the metal before they blued it. On that note the bluing is better quality that that seen on the Russian K98 captures (which is more like black paint in some cases)
I have been debating whether or not to shoot mine, as I only have one of them and mine is in superb condition. It shows no sign of EVER being shot, no marks at all on loading ramp, barrel is untouched. Only a minor mark on the hammer where somebody had dry fired it before I got it.

Yeah I only payed 425 dollars for it, but how long are these going to last at that price? I got lucky and mine missed Mr. Import Stamper, no marks found under the grips at all, one more reason I haven't shot it. I think when I get the money I might buy another one to shoot. But when these are selling for only 100 dollars more than the Post War P38s, who can go wrong?

[P08]

425 USD!!!? Is that all!!??? For a genuine WWII P38 in near perfect condition??

Wow! I will definetely buy one then!


Regarding "Import Stamps" am I right assuming that it's a US-market thing?

I can understand if you won't shoot with your's. Still I must say that I wouldn't be able not to shoot with mine if I had one. It's the same with classic sports cars - you want to preserve them, but they're meant for driving

In case one decides to shoot with his genuine P38 what type of ammo would be the "mildest" on the pistol? I shoot 9mm 95 grains JSPF in my modern pistol. Would that be ok? It's a steel frame army pistol after all.

[jaeger_45056]

Yeah I dont think shooting it would be a problem, all steel frame, not cheap alloy. Yeap 425 USD. Its really a steal assuming the market for these dries up in a couple years, I can see them going for 800 dollars in no time at all.

Import stamps is where our government likes to take either, stamps, lasers or acid etching and bugger up the finish on these beutiful C&R rifles which are brought into the country. All of the Russian Captures I have seen have this ugly Laser Dotted stamp on the muzzle, Yuck!

[Ronnie Fry]

Great story Matt!! It's good to see your rare police holster again too. Really a nice cyq. I especially liked the shooting range part where the guy tells you all about it. --- Those cog hammers are way cool!!

Ronnie