ATF gun room, guns saved from destruction

[gew98]

[quote=phild;1903580]

Anyone who looks at that debacle as heroic or even necessary is in my mind either sick or very ill informed.

Phil ; I'd definately buy you a beer !. As for Joshie the buckeye...my momma said "stupid is as stupid does". Armchair noobs..egads !.

[ottomaton]

Irrespective of who was right (and it seems to me that both at Waco and Ruby Ridge both sides could have avoided the outcome if either side had acted rationaly at one key point or another), they did recover several dozen AR-15 type guns modified from semi auto to full auto, as well as mortars, or grenade launchers or something similar. They were violating the law on a fairly large scale, and I'm reasonably sure that they understood that they were doing it as well.

I think there is a detailed Texas Rangers/ATF/FBI/Justice Department document online somewhere that I can find if anybody wants.

Of course, I'm sure there are some people who believe in all sorts of improbable conspiracies and nefarious plots. There are still people who believe that JFK was killed by Woody Harrilson's father as a mafia contract killing sponsored by the CIA. If you are willing to believe that 9/11 was orchistrated, or the moon landings were faked etc. etc., then I probably won't be able to make you think otherwise.

No, I am not trying to insult people who believe in one conspiracy or another or lump them all together and say that they are all crazy, it is just my experiece that for right or wrong people who believe firmly enough in a conspiracy to talk about it are set in their beliefs and rightly or wrongly seem to be able to explain away any evidence which contridicts those beliefs.


I went ahead looked it up. Here is the list. Sorry for the length. Part of it is not a list of the illegal weapons, but just a total inventory:

SUBJECT: Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians
In total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas
Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch
Davidian compound. In addition, a number of live grenades and
more than 300 grenade components were uncovered. Hundreds of
thousands of rounds of ammunition were also seized.
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated David
Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine
guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive
devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians'
arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The
weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified
to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and
silencers. All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed.
I hope you find these documents useful as you review Treasury's
report on ATF's role in events at Waco.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
Machine guns
The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode:
22 M-16 Type Rifles
20 AK-47 Type Rifles
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
2 M-11/Nine
The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been
modified to fire in full automatic mode.
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades

The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers,
or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's
residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it
would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons.
WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND:
TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS
AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY

TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED
(Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page)
FIREARMS
Rifles and Rifle Components
61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers
61 AK-47 Type
34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers
13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge
11 7.62MM FN FAL Type
10 Mini-14 Type
7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type
6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1
6 Assorted Rifles
5 M-11/Nine
5 M-14 Type
3 Galil
2 Heckler and Koch SP-89
1 Air Rifle
1 Heckler and Koch MP-5
1 Sten submachine gun

Pistols and Revolvers
23 Beretta
13 Glock
8 Assorted Revolvers
6 Safari Arms
6 Assorted Pistols
5 Sig Sauer
5 Walther
2 Taurus
EXPLOSIVES
Hand Grenades
4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades
100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies
of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge
or fusing system.
11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these
grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications.
219 Grenade Safety Pins
243 Grenade Safety Levers
Rifle Grenades
200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades.

FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS
Silencers
21 Sound suppressors or silencers.
Flash Suppressors
18 Flash Suppressors.
Firearms Barrels
17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)
8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber)
3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber)
1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm)
2 Ruger. 22 Caliber
1 M-60 machine gun
1 12 Gauge Shotgun
1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel
1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel
Pistol Slides
1 Sig Sauer Model
Revolver Parts
1 .38 Special caliber cylinder
Bolt Carriers
39 M-16
24 AR-15
2 MP-5
2 AK-47
1 FAL
1 Unknown
Bolts
15 AK-47
7 .22 LR conversion
3 M-16/AR-15
1 FN FAL (1)
Bolt Assemblies
3 M-11/Nine
2 M-16
1 AR-15
1 MAC-10
1 Shotgun
Recoil Springs and Guides
3 Glock
2 Sig Sauer
1 Beretta
1 M-11/Nine
Stripper Clips
29 Stripper Clips
Accessories
6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits
Hammers
31 AK-47
18 M-16
12 AR-15
4 M-11/Nine
2 Sig Sauer
1 Beretta
Hammer Springs
3 AK-47

Buffer/Recoil Springs
36 M-16/AR-15
4 AK-47
Selector Switches
9 M-16
3 AR-15
1 Unknown
Sears
1 M-11/Nine
Auto Sears
8 AK-47
4 M-16
1 FN FAL

Auto Sear Springs
12 AK-47
Disconnects
7 AK-47
1 M-16
Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings
17 M-16
6 AR-15
3 M-60
3 M-11/Nine
2 MP-5
2 Sten
1 AK-47
1 Heckler & Koch
1 M-14
1 Smith & Wesson
1 Beretta
1 Shotgun
Ammunition Magazines
289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type
248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type
108 Sten Gun Type
88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type
72 M-14 Type
61 Beretta Model Type 92
58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type
28 Ruger Mini-14 Type
22 .22 Caliber
17 UZI Type
16 USAS-12 Type
13 .45 Caliber
11 Glock
11 MP-5
11 Sig Sauer P226/P228
9 Unknown Type
7 .308 Caliber Galil Type
6 Walther PPK
5 9mm Unknown Type
4 .50 Caliber
3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine
3 .380 Auto Caliber
2 9mm Smith & Wesson
1 AK-74 Type
1 Grendel
Ammunition Containers
220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers)
15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers)
4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers)
1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers)
Magazine Springs
360 M-16/AR-15
42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type
35 AK-47
28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type
15 Unknown
10 M-14
6 M-1 Carbine
3 .50 Caliber
1 Mini-14 Magazine
1 Glock
These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from
the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear
sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers,
compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts.

[Darryl Langston]

This guy was ready for War, and he got it. I feel for those that did not want to go down with him.

[Josh Beckett]

Irrespective of who was right (and it seems to me that both at Waco and Ruby Ridge both sides could have avoided the outcome if either side had acted rationaly at one key point or another), they did recover several dozen AR-15 type guns modified from semi auto to full auto, as well as mortars, or grenade launchers or something similar. They were violating the law on a fairly large scale, and I'm reasonably sure that they understood that they were doing it as well.

I think there is a detailed Texas Rangers/ATF/FBI/Justice Department document online somewhere that I can find if anybody wants.

Of course, I'm sure there are some people who believe in all sorts of improbable conspiracies and nefarious plots. There are still people who believe that JFK was killed by Woody Harrilson's father as a mafia contract killing sponsored by the CIA. If you are willing to believe that 9/11 was orchistrated, or the moon landings were faked etc. etc., then I probably won't be able to make you think otherwise.

No, I am not trying to insult people who believe in one conspiracy or another or lump them all together and say that they are all crazy, it is just my experiece that for right or wrong people who believe firmly enough in a conspiracy to talk about it are set in their beliefs and rightly or wrongly seem to be able to explain away any evidence which contridicts those beliefs.


I went ahead looked it up. Here is the list. Sorry for the length. Part of it is not a list of the illegal weapons, but just a total inventory:

Wow, he was quite the collector.

[Bob Hritz]

Yes, they were mightly lucky to find all these guns after finding nothing for almost two years. The initial reports were that nothing was recovered because of the severe intensity orf the fire, but almost 2 years later they miraculously found firearms and grenades. The Texas Rangers were lucky after BATF had no luck. Of course, this could just be the result of BATFs ineptness and incompetence. Hmmmmmm

Now the demonization of David koresch is being well produced.

I would rather die fighting than on my knees begging. This was the first time, in US History that the active Army was ready to murder civilians at the behest of the Justice Department. A sad day for all Americans. But, none of the alleged offences carried the death penalty, which was widely delivered that sad day.

I have no sympathy for Koresch or any of the adults. If they did commit crimes, they should have been arrested and prosecuted. However, the children did not deserve to be burned to death.

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I worked for Govenrnment for 28 years. Little of what is in reports is more than the agencies' official program.

Bob Hritz

[Matt Weber]

If you ever visit the FBI building in DC. they give you a tour, and you get to walk past thier firearms storage center. (they don't let you in it though of course! it's behine glass!) Supposidly there is at least one example of every gun type ever made in there!! I walked past and did notice a couple of Stg44s, MG34, MG42, and FG42s even! and tons of lugers as well!

I would love to get a change to pick out a coupld guns out of there!

Matt

[Josh Beckett]

I would too.

[captainhoot]

My question is this:

Why won't the BATF sell these guns ???
If Presidents' and criminal can be 'pardoned', then why can't these weapons be given a "pardon", registered properly, then sold to law-abiding
gun owners here in the U.S. ????
BATF just wants to keep these weapons for themselves, huh ???
It's sickening, if you ask me !!!
Thousands and thousands of historical weapons that gun owners could be enjoying, rather than collecting dust at BATF....
My only solice here is at least they didn't cut them up !!!
That's why prices are so high, and demand is so high, is b/c they have all the sought after weapons there STOCKPILED at BATF !!!
How many Mp-40s' do you need to "study" ??? --I counted about 12 !!
How many MP-44s' must you study ??? --I counted about 16 !!
I wish I had a " get-out-of -jail free card for all those poor weapons
"serving time" there at BATF !!!
I'm truly sickened by those selfish mngu#* !!!
Just my .02.....

-Captainhoot

[Von Hoth]

Yes, they were mightly lucky to find all these guns after finding nothing for almost two years. The initial reports were that nothing was recovered because of the severe intensity orf the fire, but almost 2 years later they miraculously found firearms and grenades. The Texas Rangers were lucky after BATF had no luck. Of course, this could just be the result of BATFs ineptness and incompetence. Hmmmmmm

Now the demonization of David koresch is being well produced.

I would rather die fighting than on my knees begging. This was the first time, in US History that the active Army was ready to murder civilians at the behest of the Justice Department. A sad day for all Americans. But, none of the alleged offences carried the death penalty, which was widely delivered that sad day.

I have no sympathy for Koresch or any of the adults. If they did commit crimes, they should have been arrested and prosecuted. However, the children did not deserve to be burned to death.

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I worked for Govenrnment for 28 years. Little of what is in reports is more than the agencies' official program.

Bob Hritz

dude, do you honestly believe that the compound with the children was not given ample warning that they were to turn themselves in and answer to the law of the land? How can you blame the ATF for the children's death when it was David's brainwash-hold on the inhabitants to defy logic that resulted in the tragedy? If the ATF had allowed the Compound to slowly starve to death or become tools for propaganda, the situation would have been even worse to outsiders.

People that have the ability to warp minds for their own gain never play by the rules. They seem to take a lot of people down with them when it's time for them to pay the price. the death's of the inhabitants was planned by David in my opinion.

[Josh Beckett]

My question is this:

Why won't the BATF sell these guns ???
If Presidents' and criminal can be 'pardoned', then why can't these weapons be given a "pardon", registered properly, then sold to law-abiding
gun owners here in the U.S. ????
BATF just wants to keep these weapons for themselves, huh ???
It's sickening, if you ask me !!!
Thousands and thousands of historical weapons that gun owners could be enjoying, rather than collecting dust at BATF....
My only solice here is at least they didn't cut them up !!!
That's why prices are so high, and demand is so high, is b/c they have all the sought after weapons there STOCKPILED at BATF !!!
How many Mp-40s' do you need to "study" ??? --I counted about 12 !!
How many MP-44s' must you study ??? --I counted about 16 !!
I wish I had a " get-out-of -jail free card for all those poor weapons
"serving time" there at BATF !!!
I'm truly sickened by those selfish mngu#* !!!
Just my .02.....

-Captainhoot

Why would the ATF want them?

[Yamamoto]

Thank God they are safe now..

[Soldat de Fer]

Hello
Can we please stay on the ATF "showroom" or Alibaba's cavern subject
I can already see this nice thread going down the drain.
I am glad ,even if they are not available for us anymore ,that someone ,especialy the GOV here ,is at least preserving those historical weapons.
As a foot note ,when I served in the Army in France , Our armory had a little back room ,were all kind of old War weapons were stored ,they used to be all for training and study purpose and all were marked with their origins and were they were captured from the Enemy ,lots of German weapons were there) .
So please no more conspiracy or wako theory ,or we can start with Julius Ceasar
Best Regards
Pierre-Yves

PS ( do you think that ,if I send the ATF my Xmas list ,they would reply and oblige ? )

[Josh Beckett]

I agree, lets stay on subject.

[rajko84]

I found this but pics are gone does anybody still have them?