K98: Please Help

[reach147]

Your K98

Hi,

I like it.

From your pictures it doesn't appear to be matching numbers and with the laminate stock I would say it was a rebuild later in the war.

FYI - On German firearms, almost all the parts are serialized. Parts that are small would have the last two digits of the serial number.

What does the bore look like?

The safety can be replaced, it is an easy job.

I would fix the safety, have the headspace checked and take it to the range

Let me know if you are interested in selling it, if you have a gunstore near you, they can transfer to one near me

[k9mike]

Larry, I would recommend going to the gunboards(K98 forum), these guys will know exactly what you got, very knowledgable. here is a link.
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=4
Just post your pics, especially the one with the numbers on the barrel. It appears you have a civilian model WWII era K98.(nitro proofs) they are the ones with the eagle with the letter N under them. Some of these weapons were even used by the SS. Purchased for their use, not issued from the Wehrmacht. This may also be a local issued law enforcement firearm. Just a guess, but those guys over at the other forum will know for sure. Hope this helps. Great rifle!
Regards,
Mike

[reach147]

Yes, very interesting proof marks, if I am reading my book correctly
the eagle is the first proof mark per the law of 1939 and the second mark indicates the proof house of Suhl.

The 944 should designate month and year of stamp (Sept 1944).

That date would be appropriate for the laminate stock.

Nice rifle

[sszza2]

I examined this rifle in detail last year at the MAX in Charlotte. I must confess that w/o looking through my notes I do not recall if the bolt is mm though it appears that it is. The rifle is otherwise a textbook late commercial assembled in 9/44. Commercials of this type and vintage do not follow all std K98k production characteristics and numbering convention of their std military counterparts. Some have claimed there is a volksturm association. However, I am unconvinced as commercial rifles of this type appear before the volksturm came into being. I am uncertain who they were made for. Likely an org which had to procure outside of normal Wehrmacht channels. This is a very interesting rifle.

Scott B

[Matt Wilson]

Scott,

If I am reading all this correctly, there is at least a theory that an operation as large as an armaments factory could have been operating in Nazi Germany OUTSIDE of the military's control? That is fascinating, & if you could direct me to any further sources of research for this idea, I would me most grateful.

Much obliged,
Matt

[reach147]

Hi,

I don't think there was production outside the scope of the total armaments program, especially
late in the war.

The proof marks are per the law of 1939 and those markings would be necessary to allow
these individual parts to go into the production stream for use in an assembled weapon made from
various parts on hand.

Hence the mis-match of serial numbers.

I looked at the photo's again and the gun definately looks mis-matched to me, which I don't find a problem as I usually want to shoot what I buy

Take care,
Jim

[Matt Wilson]

Jim,

I confess I am still confused (not exactly out of the ordinary for me...). If the proof mark represents 1939 & the 944 stamp represents Sep 1944, then when was this barrel made? Or does the "Law of 1939" simply indicate the year it was initiated?

Thanks,
Matt

[reach147]

Hi Matt,

It is confusing; fortunately I have the benefit of having purchased a small text book several years ago and having held onto it

"The Standard Directory of Proof Marks with WWII German Ordinance Codes" is what I have been referencing.

Apparently the law of 1939 was enacted to establish how German firearms were to be stamped for various proof marks.

The proof marks on the barrel of this gun follow the 1939 stamping convention so the date of proof (and manufacture) is Sept 1944, (the line reading 944.)

The proof house is Suhl, which is interesting as I think that is also where JP Sauer is located and they manufactured K98’s.

I have a Sauer K98 from 1943. It is also a mismatch for some parts, but the barrel and receiver are marked completely different than this gun.

One of the other stamps also appears to be Sauer / Suhl.

This one is interesting, almost need to take it apart and look at every mark on it, including anything stamped on the stock.

My guess a Sauer gun, made from parts from a couple different sources.

Take care,
Jim

[Matt Wilson]

Thanks for the clarification, Jim.

Reckon I oughta scare up a copy of that reference for my little library...

Best,
Matt

[Larry F.]

K98 Help

Thanks guys for your help thus far. I really appreciate it!

Larry

[sszza2]

There were indeed arms assembled outside of standard Wehrmacht control. Research into the vast SS industrial empire certainly provides evidence of this. Gauleiters also produced goods for their personal financial benefit as well as the benefit of their jurisdiction. The vast majority of these commercially assembled rifles exhibit the name of the firm which assembled the subject rifle or at least a guild marking which indicates the general source of the completed assembly. Every specimen I have examined indicates a variety of parts were utilized from well known manufacturers and sub contractors.Scott B

[reach147]

Hi Scott,

For purposes of this discussion, are you defining commercial rifles as ones produced outside of say Goering or Speer's domain?

If so that is very interesting and I would enjoy your pointing out some book titles so I could read more.

Take care,
Jim

[sszza2]

Jim,

Let me begin by saying that I think a researcher needs to be extremely careful about drawing comprehensive conclusions about such a complex subject as German small arms production from a single reference on proof marks and ordinance codes. Especially as it relates to justification of mismatched parts. German small arms did not leave factories (large or small) in that state. In my experience - that is an argument frequently proferred by people trying to justify an incorrect mismatched condition.

Pre war Germany had a rich history of both military and commercial small arms production. This included large firms such as MO, JPS and Walther as well as guild groups and small shops. Very similar to the blade world though not as localized as in Solingen. Any assumption that small manufacturers and shops ceased operations entirely is not supported by a study of weapons of the period.

I would encourage you to reference Stein, Hohne, Koehl, Hackett and especially Speer who discuss SS industry and production/procurement of weapons outside of Wehrmacht channels. I would also suggest research into gauleiters and leadership within occupied territories (Heydrich, Frank, etc) and production of all sorts of goods within their little empires.

I am confidant that the subject rifle of this thread was not produced at JPS. In addition to the fact that JPS was out of the K98k business by late '44, and these rifles do not show typical K98k production JPS characteristics, numerous other examples exist '43-'45 which support individual or guild production. Even if we were to accept JPS production premise the real question remains - who were these rifles produced for? It sure wasnt the Wehrmacht.

Scott

[reach147]

Hi Scott,

Yes, I imagine many small machine shops continued to produce items for the war effort.

I also imagine this would include firms capable of producing K98 parts.

But in this case, these parts and this gun apparently came from Suhl and JPS is a possible candidate for final assembly.

"Even if we were to accept JPS production premise the real question remains - who were these rifles produced for? It sure wasnt the Wehrmacht."

I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on the point of who the intended end user was, which exactly illustrates the problem with mis-matched guns.

Too bad we couldn't ask the Vet who he got it from :-)

Take care,
Jim

[Suber]

I would venture to say that it would be extremely difficult to try and "guess" what organization this rifle was intended. By 1944 the desperation was beginning for the whole regime, not to say production was distressed as it was actually on the rise in the late war years. I find it interesting that even possibly being a commercial mauser that no markings are found on the reciever. Is this an attempt at speed of production, oversight, or perhaps the factory where this particular firearm was made may hae been underground without the tooling necessary?