Researching WW1 Luger Markings

[GerColctor]

Lyn

Looking at the photo provided of the unit marking on this Luger, there is no obivious indication that another number was removed.

Pulled out 6 of my Imperial unit marked Lugers and a . was always the last mark.

Even my Weimar police bayonets, all of which are unit marked end in a period.

[GWA]

This ought to stir things up nicely...

As stated above, Noll lists a 1918 DWM P08 with exactly the same marking as the pistol above but a different serial number, 8331a. He does in fact indicate its meaning as "Landwehr-Infanterie-Regiment 387". I disagree with him on his interpretation but that means nothing; he wrote a book, I didn't.My feeling still leans toward Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment, but what the hell.

Because of the Noll listing and the way in which the subject pistol here is marked, I am inclined to think that the marking here is fake. I think it was added by someone to boost the selling price of the gun. I have over sixty unit marked Imperial weapons in my collection most are Lugers. Of these, over half include an "R" a few include an "I" and at least one includes the letter "L". The dates of manufacture of these weapons run from 1889 to 1917, the font of all conform to a rather elegant Roman block totally unlike the markings on the pistol above.

Here's a photo of a 1917 dated LP08 for illustration.

Just my opinion.

[Chad1]

other opinions

The suggestion that the markings on this pistol are fake is something that I had not considered yet.

From the way the markings look, at least in person, they just don't strike me as postwar additions.

From what I have seen, and someone will hopefully back me up, there always seems to be a region right around any stamping that wears differently. Perhaps it is a very slight deformation of the metal, but it usually shows more wear or has slightly more patina or oxidation there. The markings on this pistol, especially the unit marking in question, also exhibit this characteristic.

However, as it's been pointed out, the font is definately different from that used on just about everything else like this.

If it were a fake, why not make it more of a standard format marking? Why make it so vague?

Possible answer: If you can't reproduce the proper font, don't overuse what you have.

I hope others weigh in with their opinions. I really don't think the markings are fake, but in this hobby, I certainly wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibilities.

[Chad1]

Out there idea...

Any chance the marking could be from some other kind of unit, like a postwar freikorps group or something? How about service in some other nations forces?

I think the odds are low on either of these, just trying to think out of the box.

[Lyn Islaub]

It's really tough to argue against an opinion based on experience with an extensive amount (60 pieces) of representative period hardware and I would concur that writing a book should not automatically qualify someone's opinion as being cast in stone. I based my comments on half a dozen Weimar police pistols and 2 Imperial era Lugers in my collection. 3 of these have had the unit marks modified to eliminate the pistol number and I had speculated that possible with this piece. I would also agree that there is a period (.) following the number on those pistols I have in my collection that retain their pistol number. Although certainly possible in this world of Waffenfabrik USA, I had not considered that the unit marking on the subject pistol was fake, although I would agree that the font is more representative of the Weimar era than the Imperial era. I have subsequently reviewed Don Maus' extensive study of Weimar police unit marks and did not see anything resembling the marking on the subject pistol. Interesting thread so far and very informative. Thx for your comments.
Lyn
Lyn

[SvenWittnebel]

...My feeling still leans toward Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment, but what the hell. ...

Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment doesn't make any sense in German, that has to be written as Infanterie-Lehrregiment.

[Chad1]

new picture

Here is another picture of the marking in question. I think it gives a better impression of how it appears in person.

Thanks again for your input guys. -Chad

[GWA]

Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment doesn't make any sense in German, that has to be written as Infanterie-Lehrregiment.

My posting of "Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment" was a supposition built upon the offerings found in "Handbuch Deutscher Waffenstempel, auf Militaer- und Dienstwaffen 1871 - 2000" by Wacker & Goertz. On page 99 they offer two possible interpretations of a marking of "L.R." followed by a number or a series of numbers;

"L.R.7.104. Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment, 7. Kompanie, Waffe Nr. 104
L.R.8. Infanterie-Leib-Regiment (Stab), Infanteriesaebel Nr. 8"

They also offer a few interpretations as Landwehr but in these markings the letters are always preceded by a numeral i.e. "2.L.R.2."

[SvenWittnebel]

Uups, my mistake. It doesn't make sense, but they used this ancient neologism since 1820 as a terminus technicus, what means simply it dont't follows the rules of the German language (since ~ 1890).
That changes in the 1930's.

1820 - (preussisches) Lehr-Bataillon,
1853- " Lehr-Infanterie-Bataillon,
disbanded 1848, 1864, 1866, 1870,
1914 - reinforced to the Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment (no number). Contrary to the old tradition to disband the troop in times of war, the new regiment fought now as part of the 3th. Garde-Brigade.

http://www.ansichtskarten-pankow.de/pankowmilitaer.htm

[Chad1]

So, what are we saying?

Okay, I am getting confused here. What are you guys actually saying here?
One of you was clear, but what about the others.

1. The markings are fake.
2. The markings are Weimar Period.
3. The markings are for a Lehr Regiment.
4. The markings are for the Leib Regiment.

It sounds like the Landwehr idea is out.

Form that previous post, do you mean that the Lehr Infantry Regiment was part of the 3rd Guard Brigade.

Where did you get this information?

[SvenWittnebel]

My sources wiki.de, preussenweb.de, Preussisch-Deutsche Uniformen von 1640-1918, Georg Ortenburg, Ingo Pr******246;mper, Orbis Verlag (a reprint of the Kn******246;tel uniform prints in color plus new comments of military history, weapons, tactics, regimental history).

But I'm sorry to say, there are no regulations mentioned how to make shortcuts for regimental markings, so I can not say LIR is Landwehr- or Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment.


PS.: There was one Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment but many Leib-Regimenter.
PPS.: I try to call tomorrow a friend from Munich, he is a P04/P08 collector. Think he can help to answer this question.

[GWA]

Chad, I guess I owe you an apology for taking your thread in a couple of different directions at the same time. As I have stated above, I think that the marking sequence indicates a "Lehr-Regiment".

When it was pointed out that Knoll had already reported a marking exactly as yours I had second thoughts. I thought that Knoll may have missed the interpretation. Also I did not like the look of the stamping on your pistol. So my thinking (always suspect) took me to the conclusion that PERHAPS, some dolt had a 1918 P08 to sell that he could not get any interest in. Maybe he or a buddy had a stamping set and one of them also had access to Mr Knoll's book.

One never knows. The markings on your P08 are not standard although they do conform to one very strange reported marking, exactly. Lastly, the tools used to mark your pistol do not even come close to what the Kaiser's army was using for the same purposes.

Over the past three years collector interest in Imperial unit marked weapons, and Lugers in particular, has heightened so I have become much more cautious when looking at such marks.

Once again I apologize if I have contributed nothing but confusion to your thread.

[Chad1]

no apology needed

GWA- No apology needed. I am just glad that there was some good discussion here. It's just too bad we couldn't nail it down.

I also appreciate everyone's help in trying to track down what the markings mean.

If anyone has a photo of the "previously reported" Landwehr Infantry Regiment markings, I would greatly appreciate a scan for comparison.

[Chad1]

new/good info

I know, this inquiry just won't end, but I came across some interesting information.

I started flipping through that book I have, Histories of 251 Divisions of the German Army Which Participated in the War 1914-1918 in one more hopeless effort to find anything with L's and R's. (for those of you that have this book, it's full of tables of which units were assigned to each division, by year, and with NO index).

I found that the Lehr Regiment was assigned to the 3rd Guard Division for the entire war. I think Sven had posted it as the 3rd Guard Brigade, but this book has it listed under the division.

So, being the Lehr Regiment is pretty cool afterall...if that is what the L. I. R. on the pistol stands for.

The other thing I like about this theory is that this division spent all of 1918 on the Western Front, which makes it more reasonable if it was souvinired there and brought back to the US.

I just hope the markings themselves, with that goofy font, are actually authentic.

[Chad1]

still thinking about it...

There are still some things that bug me about this little research project, maybe some new ideas will come out.

1. The pistol came with a nice 1918 dated holster and two magazines, neither of which has a matching serial number, while the pistol itself IS matching.

Is this a potential sign that it was captured or surrendered and the original magazines were discarded to make the weapon useless? (I realize that the magazines could easily get mixed up, but I wonder if this fact at least supports the idea that it was captured in the field).

Since the pistol doesn't have any import markings, I'd say that it was more likely captured during the war, and at that, almost with certainty by an American. I suppose it could have been brought back later on, but the odds have got to be low on that. Any thoughts?


2. Why wouldn't the unit marking (L. I. R. 387.) have any indication of which company it was in?

One explanation, if it were for the 387th Landwehr Infantry Regiment, would be that maybe all the companies were rolled together in early 1918 (the year the pistol was made). That regiment was nearly wiped out at Cambrai in late 1917. That being said, I know this particular regiment stayed in Russia until the end of the war, so I still don't have a reasonable explanation for how it would have been "captured."

Perhaps, by 1918, there was no real use in recording the weapon number either, even if they put a unit marking on it.


3. What are the odds of brand new luger pistols being issued to a busted up Landwehr division being sent to the now quiet Eastern Front of 1918? Since the Lehr Regiment was part of the 3rd Guards Div., they at least could bulk up before the sping offensive. Hmmm?

IN SHORT

I like the Lehr regiment idea because they at least fought Americans in 1918, which makes a plausible source for the pistol. However, that means that there would not have been any company marking (?), but a weapon number (?).

I also still like the Landwehr regiment idea, because I know they were mauled at the end of 1917 and may very well not have had much left in the way of companies to differentiate, much less mark the weapon number. However, a big however too, they were in Russia from the end of 1917 until the end of the war, so I've got no simple explanation on how the pistol came to the US.