French WWII Military Rifle Question (MAS 36?)

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Hi there folks,

What was the French standard rifle for the battle of France in 1940? MAS 36? In my (very) limited research I read that this rifle was not the main rifle, so which one was?

I wanted to get one, but I've holding out for a used example

(sorry, sorry, I just couldn't resist )

[Terry K.]

Hey Seba,
I really don't know but the French had just converted many of their rifles and carbines to including 1890's 1892's etc... to a new 7.5mm, also the model 1916 and 1918 were used in WW2. The new caliber was changed again into the 1936 model Mas thus there was not enough time to really get it into production and there was no truely offical single rifle. This according to the NRA book of Small Arms, 1953 ed.

[Sebastian Bianchi]

Was it the Carbine 1892 M16 (modifié 1916)?

I read so on a webpage... but you can't trust everything you read on the internet

[Terry K.]

Seba,
It is so screwed up as the French seemed to have modified even the modifications and then modified them again. It seems that by looking at the book anything is possible, the model 1907/15 were both derived from the models 1890 and 1892 carbines. The m-1916 was a 5 shot.

[David Lehmann]

French rifles availbility

ABOUT THE RIFLES AND CARBINES AVAILABILITY :



- Fusil Lebel Mle 1886/93 (8mm, 8 rounds) was replaced by the different Berthier rifles but it is still present in 1940



- Fusil Berthier Mle 07/15 (8mm, 3 rounds), replacing the Lebel rifle in 1915, still present in 1940 but few



- Fusil Berthier Mle 1916 (8mm, 5 rounds), replaced the Lebel and 07/15 rifle in 1916, the MOST COMMON in 1940 (most of the infantry divisions, fortress infantry etc.)



- Fusil Automatique Mle1917 and 1918 (8mm, 5 rounds, semi-auto) : 90000 produced. Mostly used during the Rif war but the 1917 model equipped French snipers and the others were spread among all units and given to the sharpshooters.



- The Berthier rifle 1907/15 M34 (7.5mm, 5 rounds), 45000 delivered in 1938 issued to the professional units



- MAS Mle 36 (7.5mm, 5 rounds), 250000 delivered in 1939/1940 (60000 before the beginning of the phoney war, and the rest during the following months but 250000 were used in the units) also issued primarily to all active units (about 250000 men) (the professionnal ones : chasseurs portés, dragons portés, corps francs, chasseurs alpins, infanterie de l'air, légionnaires, some cavalry and infantry divisions) and to snipers



- Mousqueton Berthier Mle 1892 M16 (8mm, 5 rounds) was used in the cavalry and several other units like artillery units I guess ... But it was also present in the Chasseurs Alpins, in the Corps Francs beside the rifles



- Mousqueton Lebel Mle1886/93 R35 (8 mm, 6 rounds) present in 1940 and mostly used by police units (traffic regulation) and cavalry units as well as artillery units.



Therefore on the French side you had :
- 2383000 rifles in 8mm (among them 90000 semi-auto to the best shooters among the divisions)
- 295000 rifles in 7.5 mm issued to the best divisions


ABOUT THE LMG's AVAILABILITY :

In 1916, the standard LMG of the squad is the FM 1915 "Chauchat", 225000 delivered (+ 35000 given to the USA)

Before 1918 about 10000 Browning FM BAR were also bought.

In 1922, 500 FM Madsen were tested.



The Army wanted the Browning FM BAR but it was too expensive.



In 1925, Adoption of the MAC FM 1924 : 50000 delivered (ammo = 7.5mm model 1924)



In 1934, Adoption of the MAC FM 24/29 (ammo = 7.5mm model 1929) and all the FM 24 transformed in FM 24/29. About 150000 delivered before 1940.



SMGs used by the French Army in 1939/1940 :

- French origin
PM MAS 38 : 1958
PM STA mle 1924 : 1200
PM Petter mle 1939 : 50
PM ETVS : 50

- Foreign origin
MP 28 : 1000
MP 34 : 200
EMP : 3250
Steyr : about 50
Suomi M/31 : 150
Thompson 1921/1928 : 3000
The EMP SMG is the most common SMG used by the French Army in 1939-40. They actually were seized from Spanish Republican troops at the end of the Spanish Civil War. 3250 MPE were counted but due to lack of magazines only about 1000 were issued. The most common place to find this weapon was with the Corps Francs.

The Thompson SMGs had been ordered to the USA in 1938 and delivered end 1939 with 30 millions cartridges. They were rarely distributed before May/June 1940, many stayed in armories or only delivered to militay police units (Gendarmes that fought on the Loire river for example). The Thompson SMGs were also delivered to the Laffly W15T CC tank destroyer crews and some AA units but they were later more used by the Vichy French troops.

Regards,

David Lehmann

[David Lehmann]

Hello,

I will try to grossly list for you the main French infantry weapons ... perhaps it may help you to better know the French 1939/1940 army.

French Main Infantry weapons

Revolver Lebel Mle 1892 - German : Revolver 637(f) -
Type : Revolver (double action)
Total length : 239 mm
Weight (empty) : 840 g
Barrel Length : 117 mm
Caliber : 8 mm Lebel
Magazine : 6 rounds
V° : 225 m/s

Pistolet automatique SACM 1935A and 1935S - German : Pistole 625(f) -
Type : Semi-automatic pistol (single action)
Total length : 195 mm (A) and 190 mm (S)
Weight (empty) : 670 g (A) and 725 g (S)
Barrel Length : 110 mm (A) and 106 mm (S)
Caliber : 7.65x22 mm Longue
Magazine : 8 rounds magazines
V° : 345 m/s

Pistolet automatique Ruby - German : Pistole 624(f) -
Type : Semi-automatic pistol (single action)
Total length : 185 mm
Weight (empty) : 750 g
Barrel Length : 85 mm
Caliber : 7.65x17 mm (.32 ACP)
Magazine : 9 rounds magazines
V° : 260 m/s

Pistolet automatique Star Mle troupe and Mle officier - German : Pistole 623(f) -
Type : Semi-automatic pistol (single action)
Total length : 205 mm (troupe) 190 mm (officier)
Weight (empty) : 910 g (troupe) 880 g (officier)
Barrel Length : 138 mm (troupe) 126 mm (officier)
Caliber : 7.65x17 mm (.32 ACP)
Magazine : 9 rounds magazines
V° : 260 m/s

Pistolet Mitrailleur MAS-38 - German : Maschinenpistole 722(f) -
Type : Sub-machinegun
Total length : 630 mm
Weight (empty) : 2.90 kg
Barrel Length : 224 mm
Caliber : 7.65x22 mm Longue
Magazine : 32 rounds magazines
Rate of fire : 640 rpm
V° : 350 m/s
The MAS38 had been developed but not really put into production in time for the 1940 campaign. It was thus rare, with only individual weapons seeing service rather than systematic issue to particular unit types. Used by Germans under the name MP 722f.

Pistolet Mitrailleur Modèle 1939 PETTER
Type : Sub-machinegun
Total length : 645 mm (388 mm with folded stock)
Weight (empty) : 2.90 kg
Barrel Length : 200 mm
Caliber : 7.65x22 mm Longue
Magazine : 36 rounds magazines
Rate of fire : 600 rpm
V° : 350 m/s
Only 50 delivered.

Pistolet Mitrailleur Modèle 1924 STA
Type : Sub-machinegun
Total length : 834 mm
Weight (empty) : 3.50 kg
Barrel Length : 226 mm
Caliber : 9x19 mm
Magazine : 32 rounds magazines
Rate of fire : 380 rpm
V° : 355 m/s
Only 1200 delivered.

Pistolet Mitrailleur Type ETVS - German : Maschinenpistole 721(f) -
Type : Sub-machinegun
Total length : 670 mm (420 mm with folded stock)
Weight (empty) : 2.70 kg
Barrel Length : 210 mm
Caliber : 7.65x22 mm Longue
Magazine : 32 rounds magazines
Rate of fire : 500 rpm
V° : 350 m/s
Only 50 delivered.

Pistolet Mitrailleur Erma Vollmer (Erma MP) - German : Maschinenpistole 740(f) -
Type : Sub-machinegun
Total length : 892 mm
Weight (empty) : 4.15 kg
Barrel Length : 250 mm
Caliber : 9x19 mm
Magazine : 20 or 32 rounds magazines
Rate of fire : 500 rpm
V° : 390 m/s

Carabine Lebel Mle 1886/93 R35 - German : Gewehr 303(f) -
Type : Bolt action carbine
Total length : 959 mm (1359 mm with bayonet)
Weight (empty) : 3.750 kg
Barrel Length : 450 mm
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 6 rounds in a tubular magazine
V° : 637 m/s

Mousqueton Berthier Mle 1892 M16 - German : Karabiner 553(f) -
Type : Bolt action carbine
Total length : 945 mm
Weight (empty) : 3.25 kg
Barrel Length : 453 mm
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 5 rounds clips
V° : 637 m/s

Fusil Lebel Mle 1886/93 - German : Gewehr 301(f) -
Type : Bolt action rifle
Total length : 1307 mm (1625 mm with bayonet)
Weight (empty) : 4.24 kg
Barrel Length : 800 mm
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 8 rounds in a tubular magazine
V° : 701 m/s

Fusil Berthier Mle 1907/1915 - German : Gewehr 302(f) -
Type : Bolt action rifle
Total length : 1306 mm (1826 mm with bayonet)
Weight (empty) : 3.81 kg
Barrel Length : 800 mm
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 3 rounds clips
V° : 701 m/s

Fusil Berthier Mle 1916 - German : Gewehr 304(f) -
Type : Bolt action rifle
Total length : 1305 mm (1825 mm with bayonet)
Weight (empty) : 4.195 kg
Barrel Length : 800 mm
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 5 rounds clips
V° : 701 m/s

Fusil Berthier Mle 07/15 M34 - German : Gewehr 241(f) -
Type : Bolt action rifle
Total length : 1008 mm
Weight (empty) : 3.70 kg
Barrel Length : 580 mm
Caliber : 7.5x54 mm
Magazine : 5 rounds clips
V° : 840 m/s

Fusil "automatique" Mle 1917/18 - German : Selbstlade-Gewehr 310(f) -
Type : Semi-automatic rifle
Total length : 1330 mm (1850 mm with bayonet) for the 1917 and 1110 mm for the 1918
Weight (empty) : 5.27 kg (1917) or 4.77 kg (1918)
Barrel Length : 800 mm (1917) or 580 mm (1918)
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 5 rounds clips
V° : 750 m/s
Only 90000 have been produced. Principally used during the Rif war in Morocco but also in France and issued to the sharpshooters and to the best riflemen in the elite units.

Fusil MAS Mle 36 - German : Gewehr 242(f) -
Type : Bolt action rifle
Total length : 1002 mm (1320 mm with bayonet)
Weight (empty) : 3.75 kg
Barrel Length : 580 mm
Caliber : 7.5x54 mm
Magazine : 5 rounds clips
V° : 840 m/s
Some 250000 were delivered to the army up to 23rd June 1940. Issued to snipers and elite troops. Known units that definitely had them were the 1st and 2nd Spahis brigades. Beyond that they were issued to all sorts of infantry and mechanized units. Used by Germans under ther name Gewehr 242(f)

Tromblon VB (Tromblon Vivien-Bessière) (VB launcher = rifle grenade)
For the VB grenade launched with the modified MAS36 or Lebel 86M93 rifle (rifle grenade)
Caliber : 50 mm (490 g)
Range : 170 m
Every French infantry platoon has a group of VB grenade launchers. These handy weapons are old Lebel Mle 1886/93 rifles converted to fire grenades. They are very valuable because of their ability to engage and destroy entrenched machine-guns.

Fusil Mitrailleur Chauchat - German : leMG 156(f) -
Type : Light machinegun
Total length : 1170 mm
Weight (empty) : 9.32 kg
Barrel Length : 450 mm
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 20 rounds half-moon magazines
Rate of fire : 250 rpm
V° : 637 m/s

Fusil Mitrailleur Châtellerault FM 24/29 - German : leMG 116(f) -
Type : Light machinegun
Total length : 1007 mm
Weight (empty) : 8.93 kg
Barrel Length : 500 mm
Caliber : 7.5x54 mm
Magazine : 25 rounds magazines
Rate of fire : 400 rpm or single shot selection
V° : 820 m/s

Saint-Etienne 8mm Mle1907 - German : sMG 256(f) -
Type : Medium machinegun (air cooled)
Total length : 1180 mm
Weight (empty) : 23.8 kg with tripod
Barrel Length : 800 mm
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 24 or 30 rounds metal trays or 251 rounds flexible belts
Rate of fire : 600 rpm
V° : 700 m/s

Hotchkiss 8mm Mle1914 - German : sMG 257(f) -
Type : Medium machinegun (air cooled)
Total length : 1310 mm
Weight (empty) : 24 kg with tripod
Barrel Length : 800 mm
Caliber : 8x50R mm
Magazine : 24 or 30 rounds metal trays or 251 rounds flexible belts
Rate of fire : 500 rpm
V° : 700 m/s

Fusil anti-char Boyes
Type : AT bolt action rifle
Total length : 1620 mm
Weight (empty) : 16.3 kg
Barrel Length : 915 mm
Caliber : 13.97x99B mm (.55in Boys)
Magazine : 5 rounds magazine
Penetration : 21 mm at 100 m
V° : 884 m/s
A modest number (several dozens) was provided by the British army in exchange for 25mm AT guns which became the weapon of the BEF's brigade AT companies. As well as some recce battalions they equipped the two paratroops units in existence.

7.5 mm Reibel MAC Mle 1931 - German : KpfwMG 311(f) -
Type : Medium/Heavy machinegun used in fortifications (twin mounts) and vehicles, sometimes dismounted and used by the infantry.
Total length : 1030 mm
Weight (empty) : 11.8 kg
Barrel Length : 600 mm
Caliber : 7.5x54 mm
Magazine : 150 rounds drum magazine
Rate of fire : 750 rpm
V° : 820 m/s

13.2 mm Hotchkiss Mle 1930 - German : sMG 271(f) -
HMG used in fortifications (Rhine Maginot Line) and vehicles
Caliber 13.2x99 mm
Sighting optic : 2.3x
Rate of fire : 450 rpm
capacity : 30 rounds magazine
- mle 1935 P (armor piercing) penetration of 25 mm at 100 m, 20 mm at 200 m and 15 mm at 400 m
- ordinary cartridge (penetration of 17 mm at 200 m)
range : 2500 m
V° : 800 m/s
It has been mounted in bunkers (96 HMGs in the Maginot Line), in a twin AA version (270 twin HMGs in 1939), in tanks and vehicles (Laffly AM80, AMR-35 ZDT-1 ...) and in AA versions. Most of the HMGs were used in the French navy which installed them on double and quadruple mountings. The Japanese, Romanian and Polish navy also used the 13,2 mm Hotchkiss. It has some AT capacities and is often used in this role against weak armored vehicles which are common in 1939/1940.