Would anyone have any advise to a first time luger buyer? I went to a gun show today and saw a couple lugers that I might be interested in. I do know that the serial numbers should match but beyond that I really do not know too much about them. My main questions would be, what is the most common luger, how much does the issue year affect the value? Also what are Lugers in excellent condition going for? One that I liked today was a Mauser dated 1941. It was in very nice condition with a holster priced at $1795. Is this a high price?Thanks, Mike
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Also Im basing my questions on the more common P-08's that are likely to be found in dealer's cases. I would assume that the rare variations would be noticed by dealers and priced as such. -
I don't know very much about Luger's, but I did happen to see one at the last gun show I went to and I think it seems a bit high. I may be wrong though.
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Get something that appeals to you. Lugers basically came in .30 and 9mm and tons of different models for many different countries. Do you want a shooter or a collector piece? If the former, you probably don't care whether a pistol has matching numbers or has been refinished- both kisses of death when it comes to collectability. If this is what would satisy you then look for an East German rework. If you're looking for an all-matching pistol, then you've come to the right place. Lugers don't move too much on this Forum but the wealth of information that is available here shouldn't be missed or overlooked. Some may say to go with a Luger dealer like Simpson Ltd in Galesburg, Illinois but you will pay top dollar. So, figure out what exactly you'd like and then seek that particular pistol out.WAF LIFE COACHComment
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My best advice is for you to find someone who you can trust and who REALLY understands Lugers to go with you when evaulating a prospect. I would actually give this same advice for anyone buying any 50+ year old higher end firearm for serious money.
Generally the WWI and Third Reich military model (4in.barrel,9mm) will be the most common. The DWM and Erfurt wartime dates from WWI and these same pistols double dated 1920 with or with out the police modifications will easily command $1000-$1500 even without matched mags if in nice original finish. With period holster, extra mag and tool you can add $500 to the above.
S/42 (Mauser Third Reich era code) marked toggles with dated chambers in the condition cited above will bring maybe 20% more, but for some sub-variations of these types they can bring even more. The 41 and 42 dated Mauser byf marked toggles will be at about the same price range, but I have seen a number of original 96% and up black gripped with holster spare Mag byf's selling for 3k and sometimes more.
Lower condition finishes can drop all of the above very much. Mismatched parts (other than mags) and re-finishes will drop all of the above prices by around 1/2, sometimes more.
As with anything, it is very important to understand what you are getting. A 1920 commercial has less interest to me that an East German or Russian re-work. They all are "collectable", whatever that means, but it is the context of of the item that is important. A Russian re-work Luger or Russian re-work 98k is more VAUABLE to a Cold War collection than a WWI or WWII piece with no Russian or East German connection is to that same collection.Comment
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Blankewaffen,
The first and foremost thing you need to do is go out and buy some books. There are several good publications out there.
There are a few publications like "German Pistols and Holsters" by Whittington and "Axis Pistols" by Still that are handy references for Luger information as well as information on the other pistols that the Germans used.
If you are going to shell out the $ that an average Luger costs then you need to first spend a few $ on a decent reference book. If you don't then you are setting yourself up to get burned. There are more fornicated up Lugers out there than you can imagine.
R.BlueComment
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Books?
I normally would never discourage buying decent reference books, but in this case I think that it pose several pitfalls:
1. If you are looking to buy one Luger, you will spend $100+ for any helpful reference on the same.
2. While the book(s) will give you a good basis of the history and the various varitations, it will not be of great help in giving you "an eye" for well done re-finishes and or re-matched parts.
3. Even pricing type books, like the Blue book, will not help you determine if the specific piece that you are considering is a good value unless you really understand the condition of the one that you are looking at.
Having said that, I will agree with rblue's suggestion IF you are very experienced in evaluating antique/semi-antique firearms in terms of condition, restoration and fakery. Still, knowing how much play a frame and receiver should have or not have or the difference in repro grips and all of the different originals will not be taught in any book.Comment
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Blankewaffen,
Phild is steering you in the wrong direction. The price of the books is of no importance. I don't care what you collect, you have to have a decent library.
I have one German dagger and about five books on them. I'm not a dagger collector but at least I can reference one if I need to.
I'm not suggesting that you go out and buy five books on Lugers but you need to at least know what it is that you are looking at. Knowledge is freedom and power. Bubba at the gun show is the worlds worst for selling a "story" rather than the gun. Most of these dealers know very little about the different variations and their true value.
Granted it is nice to handle original specimens from fellow collectors and if you can do that, then I would suggest it. Gaining experience in finish nuance is not hard. It just takes a little time. I'm sure that there is a German pistol collector in your area somewhere that can school you a little on this aspect.
However, this is all academic. It is like me going over to the helmet forum and saying "I am thinking about buying my first German helmet and I want an SS one. How do I tell if it is right?"
Phild, I suggest that you go out and pick up a copy of Gibson's "The Krieghoff Parabellum". You will find the sections on frame differences and grip variations quite interesting.
R.BlueComment
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Blankewaffen, I would suggest that you visit the Chantilly Virginia show on the 28-30 of July. There will be scores of Lugers at the show and most of the dealers are knowledgeable and honest.Comment
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R.Blue, Thanks for the tip, but I bought Gibson's book shortly after it was published in the late 60's or early 70s....and I own (and have studied) every other major and most minor references that have been published on the Luger...in both English and German and most other major references that address post 1900 German items of militaria.Originally posted by r.blue
I think that we are violently AGREEING on the importance of reference books!!!
My point to Blankwaffen is that any number of books is not going to teach him the often subtle characteristics of inspecting the parts originality,the finish and other sadly often doctored aspects of a Luger these days.Many experts are fooled all the time and it takes more than books to even the odds.
By all means one should buy every refernence book that they can find if they want to, however seek help from someone who is honest and very experienced in evaluating these guns.
As a footnote, let me say that I have owned around 30 to 35 German helmets in my collecting lifetime. I still have around half of them...somewhere, as I'm not really a helmet collector. I have looked at probably 1000 others to some degree. I got Hick's fairly recent reference on SS helmets even though I don't own one nor have any real interest in buying an SS helmet ..at least at the current prices! Having said that, I would not consider buying a SS helmet these days based soley on that book, nor Bear's, nor Goodapple's. They are all great references, but I would have to have someone who's opinion I very much trusted to help me with that purchase.Comment
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Phild,
I was just rereading this post and I have to say that my comments to you sound snippy.
Didn't mean them to come out that way.
A mentor as well as good references makes for a healthy balance.
R.BlueComment
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rblue, No problem. I took it way too direct. I think that the books were a fantastic and almost total boon to learning 30 + years ago when the master and intense fakery in this area was very uncomon and generally obvious. Unfortuniatly there were so few in depth references prior to the mid-70s for most areas of 3rd Reich collecting!
Now days, you still need every decent reference that you can get your hands on, but for beginning collectors or collectors only going after one of something, they really also need an honest and knowlegable "guide", as you just said.
I'm beathing this horse because I think that we all can get lulled into thinking that reading forums such as this will arm us with all the information that we need to make buys even on things that require a real eye for fakery and that is a very dangerous false sense of security.Comment
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Well said about the forums. I have always felt that they are something of a double edged sword.
Such a fascinating way to share information but at the same time dangerous becasue people want instant gratification and some of this stuff takes years of hands on experience.
R.BlueComment
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I have been collecting lugers for 30+years. Nothing beats having the "eye"in this field. There are real artists out there as far as faking is concerned. Here is how I would buy one today: it would have to be a nice common gun, I would look at it under direct sunlight, take every single part and check for numbers, including the grips, and get an opinion, from someone who really knows lugers. Not all dealers will allow this, some for obvious reasons, and some don't want their stuff worn out by this. I don't fool with rare proofmarks, "transitional pieces", or other rare variations. A 100% luger will cost you, but is worth the money, IMO. Re-works are under appreciated I think. For example, I saw a nice pistol with Russian proof marks selling for a lot less than an un-marked gun would. But this gun could have well been captured at Stalingrad, or re-issued to a DDR unit. I have always liked pieces of history like this, as opposed to something bright and shiney. Thanks, CharlieComment
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Thanks for all of the very good advise. I also believe very strongly in purchasing a few books before making a major purchase, just to aquire the basic information that is needed to build upon later. Could anyone recommend any gun dealers that are considered very knowledgeable and honest that are likely to be encountered at the Chantilly Va. show? Thanks, MikeComment
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