Info on gun laws

[Bob Hritz]

Well, I surely hope those who do not keep records of same-state sales never have to explain where a firearm that can be traced to you went.

If used in a crime, YOU will be trestifying where and when you sold or disposed of this arm, even if it is 10 transfers back. YOU have to prove you sold it to someone who can legally own a firearm (read the BATF rules carefully). If you say you sold it to Mr. X ,but a juvenile uses it in a crime, all Mr.X has to say is he did not get it from you. Oh well, for those who have never been interrogated or on a witness stand, good luck. I spend the better part of my life in law enforcement and certainly would NEVER transfer any post 1897 firearm without a complete record and a copy of a valid identification and receipt signed by the buyer and myself.

Oh, and check with BATF on how many transfers (buying and selling) you can make in a year to be classified as an "Unlicensed Dealer". Can you spell FELONY. One can also be an illegal 'straw buyer' if sales are not recorded. Many holes to fall into when dealing with firearms.

Bob Hritz

Bob Hritz

[Gary Cain]

Bob is making some very good points here. I am an expert witness on all aspects of firearms safety and law and testify a lot. Anytime you sell a firearm allways keep the bill of sale! Forever! As for Bobs rhetorical question about the number of transfers a person can do before they are considered a "dealer" by the ATF...it is more than one! So be very careful indeed!



Gary

Well, I surely hope those who do not keep records of same-state sales never have to explain where a firearm that can be traced to you went.

If used in a crime, YOU will be trestifying where and when you sold or disposed of this arm, even if it is 10 transfers back. YOU have to prove you sold it to someone who can legally own a firearm (read the BATF rules carefully). If you say you sold it to Mr. X ,but a juvenile uses it in a crime, all Mr.X has to say is he did not get it from you. Oh well, for those who have never been interrogated or on a witness stand, good luck. I spend the better part of my life in law enforcement and certainly would NEVER transfer any post 1897 firearm without a complete record and a copy of a valid identification and receipt signed by the buyer and myself.

Oh, and check with BATF on how many transfers (buying and selling) you can make in a year to be classified as an "Unlicensed Dealer". Can you spell FELONY. One can also be an illegal 'straw buyer' if sales are not recorded. Many holes to fall into when dealing with firearms.

Bob Hritz

Bob Hritz

[Vid]

It would certainly be wise to write the info down including ser# name and date and sign it. This is a no-brainer for the reasons stated above.

Vid

[CurtD]

I have never sold a firearm, but I probably wouldn't sell one to anyone I didn't know. There are plenty of people with fake ID's (remember the 9/11 terrorists had dozens). If it is not someone I know, I would go through an FFL. Not because I am terrified of my government, but because I do not want to supply a firearm to someone who might be a criminal (for all I know).

But let me play Devil's advocate for a moment: what happens if a firearm is stolen from you? If it is used in a crime, can you prove that it was stolen? Even if you reported a break-in to the police -- you could have faked it all.

And then there is the fake ID problem. You could easily write down anyone's name and address and claim that you thought it was genuine when you sold them a gun.

And what if someone steals your car and uses it in a robbery?

Aren't you going to end up on the witness stand with the same difficulties in these situations too?

And how many WWII era firearms have been used in crimes in the U.S. in the last 25 years or so?

[Bob Hritz]

Sorry I bothered. Some folks just don't want to know. Each of you can do as he pleases. Just don't whine when the sh!t lands on you. Keeping out of trouble is always less costly and time consuming than getting out of trouble.

Bob Hritz

[CurtD]

Sorry I bothered. Some folks just don't want to know. Each of you can do as he pleases. Just don't whine when the sh!t lands on you. Keeping out of trouble is always less costly and time consuming than getting out of trouble.

Bob Hritz

I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I just said that I am more cautious that you are if/when selling firearms. What is it you think I don't want to know?

If you don't feel like answering the questions, that's fine. If you want to get annoyed, that's fine too.

[RayG]

Okay, in regard to the posters first question regarding a Johnson rifle. I'm assuming this is a M1941 semi auto Johnson rifle. If this is the case, it is just a standard rifle and does not fall under any ATF rules regarding Class 3, (machine guns) weapons. To the best of my knowledge, possession of the rifle is legal in all states but just to make sure, check out the gun laws of your state on this site. Just click on your state on the map, Ray
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/Default.aspx#<O></O>

[RayG]

Just as an added note: Original 41 Johnson rifles in unaltered military condition in excl condt, have been selling from between $5,000 to $6,000 on the average. Ray

[Bill in VA]

Geez...there's so much misinformation and outright incorrect information, I don't know where to begin...

First, AFAIK, the only 1968 amnesty was the one dealing with the 1934 National Firearms Act wihich provided a 30 day window to register any unregistered NFA device. Its only relation to the 1968 Gun Control Act was that is was offered as a way to correct firearms' laws' deficiencies for Title II firearms, the same as the '68 GCA was for Title I firearms.

As far as records keeping, under federal, private individuals are not required to keep any records of fireamrs' transctions. Licensees, on the other hand are. Records of firearms transactions prior to Dec. 16, 1968 do not have to be retained. All other records must be retained "for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of transaction." (See 27 CFR 478.125 and 478.129) If you surrender your FFL/let your FFL lapse, you must send your records to the BATF. The only exception to this is for a C&R FFL holder. C&R FFL holders are not required to relinquish their records upon expiration/surrender of their FFL. (See 18USC CH44 923(g)(4) and 27 CFR 478.127)

Registration? There is no registration under federal law for Title I firearms. None. Period. For Title II firearms (machineguns, SBRs/SBSs, DDs, etc...) there is. They must be registered in the National Firearms Registry and Transfer Record.

How many can I sell in a year? As many as you like. What you have to watch out for is that legal fiction of an "unlicensed dealer." Under 18USC CH44 922(a)(1) you must hold an FFL if you intend to import, manufacture, or "deal" in firearms. A dealer is defined under 921(a)(11) as someone who is "engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms with a principle objective of livelihood." (Pardon my paraphrasing, but 921(a)(11), (21) and (22) spell out the complete definitons of "dealer", "engaged in the business" and "principle objective of livelihood and profit." The bottom line here is intent. Are you constatnly buying and selling on a regular basis with the intent of making money? Or are you only occasionally buying and selling? Or perhaps, just disposing of your collection in an effort to gain a little liquidity?)

Importation of firearms: You need an approved BATF Form 6 for importation. An idividual can get one approved on a case-by-case basis, provided it is not for an NFA device and the 922(v) is not violated (importation of certain foreign-made semi-auto firearms.)

A straw buyer is someone who knowingly buys a firearm with the intent of giving it to someone who may be ineligible to purchase one on thier own. (Note: it is legal to buy a firearm as gift for someone, though.) Even keeping detailed records won't prevent you from falling into a straw purchase as the seller. So you've got a record of the person you sold it to. Big deal. If you know that person is buying the gun for someone else (and it's not the occasional gift) you're guilty.

Private/unlicensed transfers...an unlicensed person may transfer a firearm to a resident of his own state as long as that person is not a prohibited person. A non-licensee may acquire a firearm from anyone in thier own state. Long guns: Long guns may be acquired in person by a non-licensee from a licensee of any other state provided that the transaction is legal in both states, as well as any resident or FFL of thier home state. Hand guns: A non-licensee may only acquire a handgun from either a resident or FFL in his own state. The whole "contiguous state" language was tossed out by the BATF a few years ago. I'm too lazy to dig through all of "open letters to FFLs" but it's in there. IIRC, most of these are now online in .pdf format at the BATF web site if you care to search...like I said, I'm too lazy. As far as sending a firearm, an unlicensed person may ship a firearm to resident of his own state, or to an FFL in any state. Federal law does not require that you use an FFL to send a firearm, only that you must hold an FFL to receive a firearm from out of state.

Keep in mind, we're talking federal law here. State and local laws vary.

[Gary Cain]

You are correct in everything Bill! The unlicensed dealer provision however, is being very loosely defined by ATF agents all over the country. Which is why I stated "one" as the number. If they arrest you, you will probably win, but as the cost to defend yourself is so high and they get to drag it out till you go bankrupt, it is just easier and smarter to err on the side of caution. I know because I fight against them in court all the time, and yes we usually win.....but not allways.


Gary

Geez...there's so much misinformation and outright incorrect information, I don't know where to begin...

First, AFAIK, the only 1968 amnesty was the one dealing with the 1934 National Firearms Act wihich provided a 30 day window to register any unregistered NFA device. Its only relation to the 1968 Gun Control Act was that is was offered as a way to correct firearms' laws' deficiencies for Title II firearms, the same as the '68 GCA was for Title I firearms.

As far as records keeping, under federal, private individuals are not required to keep any records of fireamrs' transctions. Licensees, on the other hand are. Records of firearms transactions prior to Dec. 16, 1968 do not have to be retained. All other records must be retained "for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of transaction." (See 27 CFR 478.125 and 478.129) If you surrender your FFL/let your FFL lapse, you must send your records to the BATF. The only exception to this is for a C&R FFL holder. C&R FFL holders are not required to relinquish their records upon expiration/surrender of their FFL. (See 18USC CH44 923(g)(4) and 27 CFR 478.127)

Registration? There is no registration under federal law for Title I firearms. None. Period. For Title II firearms (machineguns, SBRs/SBSs, DDs, etc...) there is. They must be registered in the National Firearms Registry and Transfer Record.

How many can I sell in a year? As many as you like. What you have to watch out for is that legal fiction of an "unlicensed dealer." Under 18USC CH44 922(a)(1) you must hold an FFL if you intend to import, manufacture, or "deal" in firearms. A dealer is defined under 921(a)(11) as someone who is "engaged in the business of buying and selling firearms with a principle objective of livelihood." (Pardon my paraphrasing, but 921(a)(11), (21) and (22) spell out the complete definitons of "dealer", "engaged in the business" and "principle objective of livelihood and profit." The bottom line here is intent. Are you constatnly buying and selling on a regular basis with the intent of making money? Or are you only occasionally buying and selling? Or perhaps, just disposing of your collection in an effort to gain a little liquidity?)

Importation of firearms: You need an approved BATF Form 6 for importation. An idividual can get one approved on a case-by-case basis, provided it is not for an NFA device and the 922(v) is not violated (importation of certain foreign-made semi-auto firearms.)

A straw buyer is someone who knowingly buys a firearm with the intent of giving it to someone who may be ineligible to purchase one on thier own. (Note: it is legal to buy a firearm as gift for someone, though.) Even keeping detailed records won't prevent you from falling into a straw purchase as the seller. So you've got a record of the person you sold it to. Big deal. If you know that person is buying the gun for someone else (and it's not the occasional gift) you're guilty.

Private/unlicensed transfers...an unlicensed person may transfer a firearm to a resident of his own state as long as that person is not a prohibited person. A non-licensee may acquire a firearm from anyone in thier own state. Long guns: Long guns may be acquired in person by a non-licensee from a licensee of any other state provided that the transaction is legal in both states, as well as any resident or FFL of thier home state. Hand guns: A non-licensee may only acquire a handgun from either a resident or FFL in his own state. The whole "contiguous state" language was tossed out by the BATF a few years ago. I'm too lazy to dig through all of "open letters to FFLs" but it's in there. IIRC, most of these are now online in .pdf format at the BATF web site if you care to search...like I said, I'm too lazy. As far as sending a firearm, an unlicensed person may ship a firearm to resident of his own state, or to an FFL in any state. Federal law does not require that you use an FFL to send a firearm, only that you must hold an FFL to receive a firearm from out of state.

Keep in mind, we're talking federal law here. State and local laws vary.

[Bill in VA]

I agree. Uncle Sam's got far deeper pockets than I do. The bottom line is that when he wants you, he'll get you, and as you pointed out, even if you avoid a felony conviction or jail time, by the time you've lost your house, your job, etc... you've realized too late that it is best to err on the side of caution. And while intent isn't always the easiest thing to prove, at least having the letter of the law on your side can give you a slight advantage.

[CurtD]

I just find it sad that here we are one day after our "Indepedence" Day and we are talking about how our government can ruin our lives at their whim for attempting to assert our Constitutional rights and the UN can have us arrested in our own country for violating laws that were not created by our elected representatives. The Supreme Court has decided it is legal for the government to confiscate your property when they decide they can make better use of it. Mexico has declared that they will sue us in our own courts if we enforce our borders.

Was there anything done under King George that was worse than what we have today?

The Founder's concept was that the government serves the people, not vice versa. But, in a democratic republic, the people get the government that they deserve.

[Bob Hritz]

Curt, you have spoken well and thought as I do.

If our founding fathers were alive, the entire congress would be hanging from lamp posts, down Pennsylvania Avenue, with signs around their necks saying: "I was a traitor to our citizens".

We have been sold out by elected officials who have become the exempt royalty, in this country. Sad as it is, our children will be the last generation to be able to own firearms. With the congress wanting to adopt the United Nations Firearms Treaty, the citizens would be prohibited from having possession of any firearm not secured in a UN approved shooting/hunting club's vault. It is just another way for those in power to sleep better knowing the citizens are like toothless dogs; lots of barking but no bite.

In the upcoming elections remember to throw our the scoundrels. It takes time for the new scoundrels to work into your rights and makes it harder with a 100% turnover in every election.

Of course, if some country is dissatisfied with our government, they can come here and replace it as our President has decided to do in Iraq. Of course, he cowers in fear of the North Koreans who won't just plant little roadside bombs. What is good for the goose.....

SORRY FOR THE RANT.

Bob Hritz

Bob Hritz

[phild]

In the upcoming elections remember to throw our the scoundrels. It takes time for the new scoundrels to work into your rights and makes it harder with a 100% turnover in every election.


Bob, A great post! I had to single out the lines above because they are so true and reflect the voting tactics that I and many of my friends have adopted over the last 15 years or so. Letting these people become comfortable and secure in office is the greatest sin that can be comitted by the American voter.

Sadly, the greed, ignorance and fear or most of the people in this country has created this state of affairs.

[Gary Cain]

It's not fear or greed for the most part. The people are ignorant for sure, and they are content because they have full bellies. The government is made up of truly screwed up people and the problem is when they are caught in some act of corruption the populace just shrugs their collective shoulders and thinks 'well thats just par for the course'. It shouldn't be. If a public official is convicted of corruption he should be made to truly suffer. I go up agains perjurers in government all the time and they are so protected that it is very difficult to get them arrested for the crimes they commit. To date I have spent nearly $100,000 going after one CA Dept of Justice agent who is corrupt as the day is long. In about three more years I hope to have him finally brought up on charges. But it's a long fight let me tell you!



Gary

In the upcoming elections remember to throw our the scoundrels. It takes time for the new scoundrels to work into your rights and makes it harder with a 100% turnover in every election.


Bob, A great post! I had to single out the lines above because they are so true and reflect the voting tactics that I and many of my friends have adopted over the last 15 years or so. Letting these people become comfortable and secure in office is the greatest sin that can be comitted by the American voter.

Sadly, the greed, ignorance and fear or most of the people in this country has created this state of affairs.