Question: MP-44 sniper ???

[captainhoot]

Hey Guys.

I have a burning question. Is there such thing as a MP-44 sniper
(with a rail and a ZF-4 scope), or were the sniper versions of the MP-44
all marked MP-43/1 ???

Thanks for any responses in advance.

-Capt.Hoot

[kiwicollector]

Hey Guys.

I have a burning question. Is there such thing as a MP-44 sniper
(with a rail and a ZF-4 scope), or were the sniper versions of the MP-44
all marked MP-43/1 ???

Thanks for any responses in advance.

-Capt.Hoot

The MP.44 series was tested as a sniper rifle but was determined to be unsuitable for the role. Only a few rifles had scopes mounted for testing purposes.

Over all the rifle and calibre are not suitable as a sniper rifle.

[ottomaton]

The MP43/1 variant differed [from the MP 43] only in the nature of the threads at the muzzle. The MP43/1 used the same large diameter threads and muzzle nut as the MKb 42(H), making it possible to use the MKb 42(H) grenade launcher attachment.

Additionally, the MP43/1 had a long, thick foresight base
and a constant diameter barrel immediately behind the front sight. The MP43 used shorter length, smaller diameter muzzle threads and muzzle nut. Additionally, it had a shorter, thinner foresight, and a reduced barrel diameter immediately behind the front sight assembly. Because of this reduced diameter, it would accept the standard K98k grenade launcher.

From cruffler.com, a C&R collector's site.

[Matt Weber]

I have seen photographs, and written accounts of the MP44 (Stg44) being used as a sniper rifle. I believe it was fitted with the same ZF4 scope as the G/K43 rifle. In the book, "Sniper on the Eastern Front" Sepp Allenberger recalls seeing a squad of newly trained SS snipers. All of which were armed with the G/K43 sniper, but he does state that one had the new MP44 sniper rifle!!

While I'm not sure if these were marked "MP43/1" or "MP44", I do know that the MP43 and MP44 are the same rifle with just different names. As is the Stg44.

Just looked in Senichs' book. and it has a few photos of an MP43/1 an MP44 with ZF4 and also one with the ZF41(only one known!), and also a Stg44 with ZF4 scope. He states that Haenel was responsible for fitting the ZF4 sights to the assault rifles. The ZF4 and mount look identical to the G/K43 rifle mounts.
Also in Senichs' book he shows a British officer demonstrating the use of a capture Stg44 fitted with the ZG1229 infared night vision sight!!!

So, yes, I believe that the Germans did have assault rifles with telescopic sights. How many? Probably very few! And even fewer survived I'm sure.

Matt

[kiwicollector]

Matt, the photos in Senich's book of a StG.44 with a receiver mounted scoup mount were taken at the second sniper trials for the MP.44 rifles (the first being done with MP.43/1 with the scope mounted on rails on the rear sight, again the resaults were unsatisfactory).

If you read the text, you will note that the resaults of the trials were that the StG.44 with the receiver mounted scope was not suitable as a sniper rifle because of the high level of shoot dispersion. Whether this was caused by the scope, mount or rifle could not be determined but no further trials were held.

[dect]

Hey Guys.

I have a burning question. Is there such thing as a MP-44 sniper
(with a rail and a ZF-4 scope), or were the sniper versions of the MP-44
all marked MP-43/1 ???

Thanks for any responses in advance.

-Capt.Hoot

Take a look here: http://claus.espeholt.dk/mp44.htm - I think you'll find what you are looking for.

I have seen photographs, and written accounts of the MP44 (Stg44) being used as a sniper rifle. I believe it was fitted with the same ZF4 scope as the G/K43 rifle. In the book, "Sniper on the Eastern Front" Sepp Allenberger recalls seeing a squad of newly trained SS snipers. All of which were armed with the G/K43 sniper, but he does state that one had the new MP44 sniper rifle!!

While I'm not sure if these were marked "MP43/1" or "MP44", I do know that the MP43 and MP44 are the same rifle with just different names. As is the Stg44.

Just looked in Senichs' book. and it has a few photos of an MP43/1 an MP44 with ZF4 and also one with the ZF41(only one known!), and also a Stg44 with ZF4 scope. He states that Haenel was responsible for fitting the ZF4 sights to the assault rifles. The ZF4 and mount look identical to the G/K43 rifle mounts.
Also in Senichs' book he shows a British officer demonstrating the use of a capture Stg44 fitted with the ZG1229 infared night vision sight!!!

So, yes, I believe that the Germans did have assault rifles with telescopic sights. How many? Probably very few! And even fewer survived I'm sure.

Matt

Scopes (at least ZF4) were different because of the different bullet trajectory. Note this scope (below) its markings and Nr. (S/N ?): 0090.



Also the mount, as below:



As Claus wrote: "The steel base was almost identical to the integral G43 / K43 scope rail. The scope mount had an appearance very much like the very first G43 slanted-strut telescope mounts." If you'll take a closer look on this photo you'll see the difference.

From what I've heard there were about 1000 "war-time" MP44 with the side rail on the main housing. I've also seen fakes - "regular" MP44 with rail welded after the war.

Kind regards
Jacek

[Douglas Jr.]

Hi,

Concerning the MP44 tests for the sniper role, it was also considered that its long magazines made its silhouette too high tunring it more difficult to conceal. You can see this negative point clearly in the picture posted by Jacek.

Douglas.

[captainhoot]

Thanks Guys for all the helpful information.
That pic of the "Kurz Partrone" scope was really helpful, as well as the information Matt provided. Thanks guys. Maybe Santa has a nice scoped
MP-44 for me in his bag of goodies. I promise I have been a good boy this year....

-Andrew

[Mike Steves]

You can't forget the fact that the scope rails on late MP44/StG44 rifles were for the Vampir night vision scopes, to be used in conjunction with night vision searchlights in static positions.

[Jeff V]

Mike is right on this. Any late war guns with the rail are for night vision rather than Zf4's. The sniper idea, was early on in the development of the weapon system, dismissed as unsuitable.
jeff

[captainhoot]

Roger that guys, I take your point.
Thanks.

-Andrew

[MP43SNIPER]

Senich's book is good, but as always one cannot believe everything one reads.

Does anyone know the source of the info regarding "1000 scoped MP44s" being produced? I have seen only one reference to that number which was in an online article a few years ago. None of the books I have mention a possible number or even attempt to make guesstimations.

I collect information on these ultra-rare Sturmgewehr variants and have yet to find an MP43 marked rifle with a scope rail in the US. The scope pictured in this thread belongs to rifle #90 which has a notched rail riveted to a stamped base, owned by a friend of mine. It is only one of 2 scopes I know of for the Sturmgewehr rifles. I agree with most researchers on the theory that after the tests by the Infanterieschule on the original 11 scoped MP43/1s, the vast majority of any scoped MPs were to be used (or tested with) the Vampir system.

If anyone has info (serial numbers, codes, stamps, etc) from a scoped MP, please pass it on so I can put it in my database. Also, does anyone know of any legitimate "MP43" (not MP43/1) marked rifles having the zf4 rail? All leads I have investigated were actually MP43/1s incorrectly referred to as MP43s.

Thanks,
Craig
FJ Pi Btl 1